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Shadowself
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/20/2008 03:35:37)
Is indoctrination passive? I always thought it came about through the actions of witnessing, teaching, etc., as in the examples you gave. The passing on of doctrine from one to another; imposing ideas upon one. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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snakechic
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/22/2008 08:38:56)
I was thinking aloud...Of course 'indoctrination' is not passive. I'm saying there is not such thing..no blanket, easy term to explain why people become fervent 'believers'.
However...I think there is a suggestion that it is somehow 'passive'...
Let me explain what I"m getting at.....
If 'indoctrination' is passed on through the actions set out..(witnessing, teaching, advice, emotional manipulation etc) ............................then I'm thinking that the 'flock' are 'brainwashing' themselves as well as each other and people they meet outside their group. In other words.....its not clearly a simple case of being 'brainwashed' - which suggests something that's passive but that the religious devote is being the actor of so called 'brainwashing' on others.
Of course the transaction is not passive... but people who define themselves as 'victims' usually suggests something has been 'done to them'....ie. passive.
My point is that ..I don't think it is.?
If you feel you have been 'indoctrinated' then I guess the so called 'victim' might also be the 'perpetrator'.
It kinda gets weird ...illlogical...to say "I have been 'brainwashed' into 'brainswashing' everyone around me"....'and therefore it has/had nothing to do with me'...
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/22/2008 21:21:34)
Here's a sample of christian youth are up to.... you could call them experts in pitching their product. I don't believe its about being 'brainwashed' or indoctrinated at all. I think maybe..some people are fixed on this kind of thing with or without christianity....some people wouldn't be interested or find it difficult to front up to people. on http://www.dare2share.org/culturecommission/Halo-2quotes... How to Share Your Faith Using Halo 2Halo 2 is also an extremely violent game with plenty of cussing, so PLEASE understand that as a ministry we are not saying “everyone run out and start playing this game as soon as possible!” The point is that almost everyone already has run out and played it, so we think this is an awesome opportunity to take something hugely popular in our culture and turn it into a way to share the most important message in the universe with your friends who don’t have a relationship with God. So let’s talk about a few ways to do this. First, let’s consider the storyline. Basically you play the hero by protecting civilization from aliens who are out to wipe out the human race. Don’t you just hate it when a bunch of outer space freaks get together and decide it’s their mission to torch humanity? I know I do! The interesting thing is that God hates it too. In fact, the Halo storyline is remarkably like a major theme of the Bible. God created people in a perfect world in a perfect relationship with Him, which made Satan and his angels very jealous. So since the beginning of time, they have been on a mission to destroy all humans. Here’s what Jesus said: A thief (Satan) is only there to steal and kill and destroy. I came so they can have real and eternal life, more and better life than they ever dreamed of. (John 10:10)
Jesus came to this planet to save the planet from a group much worse than the Covenant (the aliens) and from a fate much worse than physical death. Satan’s goal is to make sure people have a miserable and short life that stays as far away from the gospel as possible so he can have company in hell. Jesus died on the Cross and came back from the dead to give us the life God intended us to have. Remember this: for the Christian, this life is the only hell we will ever experience. For the non-Christian, this life is the only heaven they will ever experience. So the next time you are hanging out with friends who know Halo but don’t know God, try bringing up a conversation about the storyline behind planet earth. A second way to witness using Halo 2 is to bring up the whole topic of what happens when we die. It’s pretty difficult to play Halo 2 and not see something get killed, right? So what a great opportunity to say something like this to your friends: “Hey, have you ever wondered what happens when people die? I mean, in this game you can start over after you “die,” but I don’t think that’s the way real life works. What do you think?” Then after they share their beliefs, ask them if you can share yours. Be sure and mention that of all people on earth, Christians don’t need to be afraid of death because our ultimate destination is in heaven. This might also be a good chance to share that all other religions except Christianity give people a second chance after you die, which is what makes trusting in Christ now so important. A third way to witness while playing Halo is through the online multi-player option. If you’re blasting aliens with some guy in England and you both have the headsets on, share the gospel with him. You’ll be doing overseas missions work while sitting in your boxers on the sofa. How cool is that? If you need to brush up on sharing the Gospel, check out the GOSPEL Journey on our website. Halo 2 is definitely going to be around for a while, but there is no guarantee when it comes to your friends. What we need are people who approach their Christianity with the same passion and concentration as they do with video games. Will you plug in and take action today?
cheeky scam artists ain't they?
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Shadowself
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/22/2008 21:43:17)
I think that in many cases, we have to accept responsibility for our choice to believe the Christian meme. I know after I left, I was angry at myself for falling for that crap, and wasting my time and money on it. But I had become a Christian as an adult. What about cases where someone was raised from the start in a fundamentalist Christian atmosphere, and kept from exposure to any alien ideas or situations? Perhaps someone had super fundy parents, was homeschooled, taken to church whenever the doors were open, not allowed to associate with anyone other than their own church people, only allowed to listen to Christian radio and music, etc. Would this person be able to look objectively at Christianity? Would they be able to question what they were taught? Could they be considered a true victim? The answer to this is probably in psychology, rather than religion.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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snakechic
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/23/2008 00:51:03)
Yes ...children are more vulnerable..less able to choose religion if their parents take them to church... but they do and can get away at some point. I don't know...I think if it was only about 'indoctrination' and keeping people (including kids) in closed groups etc.........the entire world might be chrisitan but it is not.
For me...It didn't work locking me up (at times literally) and keeping me within the confines of the SDAist environment..& later the baptist..(groans)...Children don't learn much except how to fear. Same can be said for smacking children - kids don't learn much from that either..except that shame..and that violence is a way to solve problems, to lie etc. What I learnt from my christian childhood lessons was how to escape - shut it off. What my parents, xian teachers etc did...only make me hate them.
I don't think the xian's like to think about that part of it....that their witnessing is a pain to others. I didn't actually ever believe or learn the christian dogma - the xian meme (whatever that is) didn't exist for me but that doesn't mean I wasn't any less effected by the crap of christianity.
I don't think there's an answer in psychology either...but its a probably a better place to look for sure....maybe there is no one answer at all. ? Just individuals so don't always fit into the pet theories of their therapists much less their 'pastor' at church. (I include all individuals not just some)
I don't know...I come from a place where I don't think christianity is or was effective - that it works or is perfect or that humans are pre programmed/ memed/ passively ..& so on...However.. I think it does change people to some degree (usually..but everything in the environment does that)....... I recon some people are more suited to the christian lifestyle than others. Some people 'desire' it..want it and get something out of it. While other's less so or not at all...?
I'm happy that christianity can't swallow up people - that there is no such power in the dogma... and that a great many people get out and move on from their past, learn from mistakes..................................................................
pity but I don't think that includes my sibling - I'm pretty much resigned to that...at times it still makes me mad thou' . Not that it would change how I think or feel if she changed her mind - the relationship is over and its good for me that it is. I am raving on....but I think that's the point of this thread anyway...
What effect christianity has on peoples emotions...
I don't like chrisitianity .. I have strong feelings about it (understandably)..........but I've also met up with heaps of people lately who also don't go in for all that crap but weren't ever remotely involved with it.
Is n't it funny that christianity can evoke such responses from people. To me christianity is associated with debate and arguments...loud screaming men standing out front of other's like peacocks.....sickening music meant to render person 'on fire' with some stuper that their performance to their group is their whole reason for being.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Chirpy
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/28/2008 09:58:23)
Reply to Snakechic
I didn't much as I was told I wasn't a good enough witness to evangelise. In my christian culture witnessing had to be done first by showing non-christians how christians lived their lives and secondly by the non-christians asking us questions. I believed I wasn't a good enough witness as generally I believed that everything I did was not good enough as I was brought up to be a perfectionist. Consequently I didn't question any criticism thrown at me in church and by other christians. I do know but only after years of counselling where I was told that I had to set my own standards and that 'good enough' was an arbitrary standard anyhow. Looking back I'm glad that I didn't try to convert anyone except on a rare occasion. At least I don't have that guilt to deal with now.
That Halo 2 game shows how fundyism can spread out of the States into other countries. I'm watching to see how fundyism is taking hold in Britain so I'm vary wary. While the internet is being used to spread fundyism we can use it to spread anti-fundyism and it wasn't for the internet I'd still be confused about my bad experiences in christianity today and blaming myself rather than the religion and the messages in the Bible. Reply to Shadowself I too became a christian as an adult and had had the benefit of a very secular atheistic secondary school education when younger as well as traditional nominal christian primary school education which enabled me to look at things from different angles. However my parents didn't completely shake off their christian upbringing and brought me up to be submissive, servile and too timid and shy to bother anyone else. I was also brought up with the idea that children no matter how old they are were to submit to parents and do all the running around after them even after they have left home and have had families. Also that when I got a steady boyfriend I was to stick with him, forsake all my other friends and interests and see him as my once source of fulfillment of needs. As well as that you were to be blamed if you were a victim of sexual harassment, abuse or rape whether it was because you were flaunting yourself or because you were an easy and vulnerable target. I had to do much fighting against that. Crazy considering I came from a non church going family so I didn't connect those attitudes with christianity at all. Fortunately I was exposed to other ideas in school.
It must be even worse for those as you mentionned who have brought up with no outside secular contact as is the case with Marlene Winnell coming from a missionary family. I saw a television documentary last night about the Jones cult and there seems very little difference between that and what goes on fundy churches.
(Message edited by Chirpy on 01/28/2008 09:59:55)
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snakechic
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:01/28/2008 19:52:42)
I can relate to that Chirpy..."not good enough" thing ...I was basically put down and not accepted for the individual everyone has the right to be...........these days they call it 'emotional abuse' or at least poor parenting skills.
In my childhood...the SDAists didn't much go for the rabid evangelising that seems to happen these days - not even 'door knocking'...so I wasn't prepared for "the attack" 30yrs down the track from my sister who decided to join a very strict penticostal group ........... . Also ...my parents didn't try to continually convince me or approach the subject that 'I should be going to some church" ...during that 30 yr period after I left home. ? Not sure what they thought..but I recon I gave off enough agro to let them know I wasn't having any of it. They of course tried on all the other sneaky control mechanisms - money being their very favorite.
Even if I had been a 'good' xian in my teens..I don't think I'd have the confidence nor the "attitude" to try and push any kind of 'belief' down any elses throat or want anything to do with obtaining church positions such as 'sabbath/sunday school teacher' ......I wasn't interested in anything that required me to stand up at the front of the group or be terribly involved with the congregation.......I pretty much 'wagged' a lot of it and snuck out of church whenever I could. It made me sick to sit there held captive for that many hours every week when I could be doing something else - like sleeping in.
I think christianity has become much more aggressive in its 'selling' strategies these days.......There seems to be more focus & pressure on 'sheeeple' to evangelise and sell the message. I wonder if 'believer's' are sometimes given a quota of new recruits or a time book to fill in for their 'evangelising'.....
I'm half kidding.....but the Mormons 'have to' give up 1 or 2 years of their lives to recruiting others - being a missionary is part of the deal in a lot of christian sects.
I think people who like 'order' in their world are more likely to be attracted to this form of christianity - my much older sister is. Being under control has its benefits..............for one less obvious reason, she is able to "HAVE" that contol on her family as well as on her own life. I see that as part of the appeal of 'evangelising' - its a powerful thing to be 'judging' others - it kinda backs up the persons self esteem & confidence in their choosen lifestyle.
btw....Shadows quote of M. W.... "big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent".--Marlene Winell
Yeah...
Sure does reveal where she comes from..her past influences of christianity - her biases perhaps...because its not a common thing for a 'professional' to say. I mean..'big revelation' ?.?? ..to me its a 'given'.
I guess..all that 'born in sin' is an effective method to undermine a persons esteem.................and perhaps why nobody is ever 'good enough'...well except for the arseholes who run the churches. Arrogant pieces of shit! raking it in $....trying to mess with how 'families' are organised. Its very political............all that evangelising - "In god we trust" bullshit..
once I get going I tend to rave on..and on...I get very annoyed by it all.....!!!
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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logophile
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RE:How did/do you pass on your religious beliefs to others?
(Date Posted:03/10/2008 17:07:07)
For a while in my fundy days, I was pretty heavy into the idea of passing on the message, but because I was shy and quiet, I didn't do much actual pushy evangelizing. I remember moments of having quite a romantic view of people getting converted, and i wanted to be involved somehow in bringing them to jesus. I would pray for people's soul's alot. Looking back, I felt I could win points with god that way. Also, I think I figured that if i convinced enough people of the gospel message, then maybe just maybe I could finally conquer my own doubts.
When I was really young (age 11) and first suckered in, they sent me and my church friend Kelly out door-to-door on Saturday mornings giving out tracts. We had a whole cutesy "Jesus loves you" intro we said together, like twins. It must have been highly annoying to the poor folks we had woken up, but many people at least were civil to us, because we were young and innoent looking. At the time, I was still new and in the mindset that this church stuff was just another scam, like palm reading or whatever, but I enjoyed the fun and theatrical element of this door-to-door activity.
In my mid-teens, I reached a point where I had convinced myself that Christianity was most likely true, and my doubts existed because i was somehow wrong or evil. I placed alot of value on people getting converted. During this time, I volunteered to go out with my church to bring food and jesus to the homeless in midtown New York city. I imagined people getting saved left and right and possibly that I might get up the nerve to lead someone to jesus.That didn't happen. Strangely enough I ended up enjoying the activity simply for the chance to bring people food, and to meet all the interesting folks. Rather than banishing my doubts, the experience raised some new doubts and questions about the faith. I met so many people in harsh situations who had heartbreaking stories. Many had had jesus in their lives before or even at the time. Why wasn't god helping them? I also came into contact with plenty of people who were not homeless, but just passing through on the | | |
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