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Gomorralizer
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From:
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(Date Posted:02/12/2006 11:12 PM)
Reply to : snakechic
I'm wondering about the effectiveness of or purpose of debates and if they actually contribute to a 'shift' of position or do most people use a debate in order to declare and reinforce their mindset?(I have a view of a poll below..hope it works like that for you)
I would say that if somone has never been swayed by the opposing side in an arguement, then it's probably either because they:
a) tend to debate with people who are very bad at it...and/or...
b) don't take the time or care to consider the other person's arguments.
The inability to consider alternatives to one's own views -- isn't that the bugbear of the fundamentalist mind?
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"Many..have too rashly charged the troops of error, and remain as trophies unto the enemies of truth"-Thomas Browne
"Religion is by no means a proper subject of conversation in mixed company"- Philip Dormer Stanhope, Earl of Chesterfield
"God is simply the tendancy by which all things seek to fulfil the law of their being"-Matthew Arnold
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snakechic
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2# |
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(Date Posted:02/13/2006 12:19 AM)
What if its a case that the individual IS debating with a Fundamentalist Xian?
May I highlight the 'ANY' part of the question...and not necessarily this forum........could be a Fundamentatist or Religous Forum ....or any forum...the world is your oyster
Please see this as a broad question or from all sides..... - its a choice to refer only to WA..Okay...
I would say that if somone has never been swayed by the opposing side in an arguement, then it's probably either because they:a)tend to debate with people who are very bad at it...and/or...b) don't take the time or care to consider the other person's arguments.The inability to consider alternatives to one's own views -- isn't that the bugbear of the fundamentalist mind?
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Cyranothe2nd
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3# |
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(Date Posted:02/13/2006 12:58 AM)
I would say yes. I have definately been changed by some of the debates on this forum.
One in particular wasn't a debate, just an attitude. After my walk away I was really unwilling to say that I was a non-believer, preferring terms like "agnostic" or "spiritual", not because I was but because I saw atheism as the penultimate form of hopelessness. But, after meeting some wonderful, cheerful, lifeaffirming atheists here I finally worked up the courage to be what I am--a true non-believer.
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"After all this time?" Dumbledore asked sadly.
"Always," said Snape.
***Trust the Prince***
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Voltaire
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4# |
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(Date Posted:02/13/2006 6:35 AM)
Reply to : snakechic
What if its a case that the individual IS debating with a Fundamentalist Xian?
It's been said before on this forum that debates with fundies really isn't a debate. They're not interested in a true debate. Instead all they're interested in is proselytizing you back into the fold, and it's this that's so annoying about them. I think I've had my opinion changed for the better many times by debates, but when it comes to some bible waving yahoo talking to them is pointless.
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Zombies, Unicorns, Devils, Sea Monsters, Satyrs, Dragons, Six Winged Angels, Gods, Demons, Witches, Astrologers, A walking & talking snake, Magical fruit, Talking donkeys, human headed six-winged beasts, Ghosts. All that stuff is in the Bible and yet they tell me it"s not mythology?
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talitha_cumi
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5# |
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(Date Posted:02/13/2006 9:40 PM)
Reply to : Voltaire
It's been said before on this forum that debates with fundies really isn't a debate.
I agree with that statement. I have, however, reconsidered my viewpoint after a non-debate with a fundie. I didn't change my mind, per se. I didn't suddenly decide that, oops! Maybe this religion thing is ok after all! But, I did think about things a bit differently. I think that when talking to someone I fundamentally disagree with (the agree-to-disagree thing), that's when I hone my own opinions the most. Like a blade on a sharpening stone, so to speak. It's better if the person is intelligent and good at debating, of course. But, I'm not sure if that's what the question is about.
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Religions encourage their followers to hold authority in unquestioning respect; this is what makes devout religionists such wonderful dupes for dictators.
--Anne Nicol Gaylor
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snakechic
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6# |
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(Date Posted:02/15/2006 12:30 AM)
It's been said before on this forum that debates with fundies really isn't a debate.
Yeah.....definately! I try not to let my guard down with fundies..I don't think I'd enter into a debate with a fundie or at least not for too long..not worth the anxiety or pissedoffedness I tend to feel. You could say I'm aware of the psychology of it....that sometimes I'm more vulnerable than other times. My policy while using the internet is to not let it influence me too much...and perhaps to keep away from fundies who like to debate.or drive their religous ideas up my nose.
I guess everyone may have their own definition of what a debate is about...and of course their own experiences.
For me....I consider a debate to be a formal kind of thing...that both parties agree to enter into and keep to some kind of 'rule'..... I'm a terrible at that stuff...never liked to join debating teams at highschool and I'm not very competitive...but I think the main purpose of that kind of debate is to win.
In general or relaxed kinds of 'discussion's' I enjoy 'nit picking' with the best of em'...or at least not agreeing with everything just because it would be more polite to do so. I think its great to disagree, I don't take it personally at all.
I read a similar question on a very large forum sometime ago...(a general one)...most people there are quite clever, witty, etc.(bit like here)and the general consensus was that NOPE...the individual goes into a debate/discussion with an already makeup mind (or idea) and more or less tries to put their point across....<shrugs> The individuals who commented on this question, didn't seem to have a hang up about needing to prove they have an 'open mind'..etc.....um..Me I don't think that's indicative of a fundy mindset at all....that to stick to your guns, so to speak is necessarily a bad thing.... or even a good thing.
My attitude is that everyone has a right to an opinion. In matters where there is no proof or possibility of an answer as in most metaphysical topics thats all it can be. No backup references needed!
On this chatroom.....I've had a very memorable occasion when I inquired about a topic that was very important to me and the responses I received have stayed with me ever since. By asking the question in the first place I had already more or less made up my mind to change it....or that I needed more information than I had already been given..........................I don't think I'd change my mind about that particular topic again.....I'm happy with my conclusions thus far.
Addendum....I also wondered how come there is very little debating going on at WA? Whatever style - not necessarily the old school format...
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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7# |
Rank:none
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RE:Poll: Have you 'changed' your mind or been swayed to a different or opposite position as a result of a debate on any forum?
(Date Posted:04/23/2008 5:20 PM)
apparantly the poll function isn't available here anymore...?
but I still wonder why there is very little debating going on at waff.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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