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snakechic
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(Date Posted:11/07/2007 18:40:04)

Reply to : The Cuteness  et al..





I disagree slightly. I think that you only have control over these types of things when you are aware of what they are doing - otherwise they get to you................................I'm not saying we're at the mercy of the advertising people, but I think you have to consciously reject what they tell you or you end up believing it. How is that not brainwashing?



To have control and awareness means its not 'brainwashing'.  To be 'unaware' doesn't mean its brainwashing - means the individual is unaware.


To consciously reject means its not 'brainwashing'... Making such choices of believing or not..or buying or not is part of 'normal' everyday living in a noisy world of advertising.  


The best way I can illustrate that kind of idea..is to explore advertising & what most  competitive advertising business people are asking..


why most advertising fails?...


here's one book "What sticks:Why most advertising fails"    quote..



47% of the advertising campaigns studied didnt work source


Another site....says the failure rate is as high as 80%


 At the very least..Advertising is supposed to incite some interest in the consumer / create awareness.. That's not brainwashing. The consumer chooses what to buy and what not to buy.  


Here's what someone says about web ertising..


"As long as consumers have an opportunity to be exposed to a banner ad, they have two choices: 1) to click the banner ad to request more information or 2) not to click it. " source 





I don't think its as simple as a social trend




I don't know...its hard to pin down exactly...however....Another source suggests that the reasons advertising fails is that it doesn't keep up with 'social trends'...




'Marketers are failing to keep up with how women have changed and consequently their advertising's outdated'....


Marketers also use vignette advertising, trying to cover every type of woman - every hair colour, every lifestage, rather than digging deeper and finding the things that all women have in common. This is the real ill of advertising. Advertising to women only scratches the surface.


 






I don't know about that mind control link you posted - that seems like some science fiction





The main  point of that research was that not everyone approached by the Moonies (a crazycult) become members. That's not scifi....  ....Exactly the same point can be made with apparently less 'brainwashy'  or mainstream churches like the pentecostals or methodists. If its brainwashing how come not everyone is recruited...or remains a member for life. ?


 

On the 'religion' thing.......I've observed that most of the recruiting and pressure  - call it evangelising, is performed by members themselves..ordinary - average people. Surely they are not  all 'expert' brainwashers.  Nah...its something else methinks.


I also see a connection between Network Marketing and the way Religion is sold to the consumer. Apparently I'm not the only one with that kind of idea. 





I still find sometimes when I'm really happy or excited about something I find myself in the nearest McDonalds. I can't really explain this behaviour - it puzzles me. It's almost like I don't know what to do with myself when I'm feeling euphoric - but why would I eat crap? I don't know!




I used to do the same thing but with alcohol......to celebrate!  Food is associated with celebration as well.  ie. ' Lets go out to eat to celebrate'..


Euphoric? ...I also find that if I eat...it calms me down -makes me sleepy... something to do with the metabolism ? I know why I eat crap..I like crap sometimes!


( I try so hard to make this post shorter..).. 


Volts....just so NO to Macca's..


--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
The Cuteness
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(Date Posted:11/07/2007 19:53:39)

Reply to : snakechic




To have control and awareness means its not 'brainwashing'. To be 'unaware' doesn't mean its brainwashing - means the individual is unaware.To consciously reject means its not 'brainwashing'... Making such choices of believing or not..or buying or not is part of 'normal' everyday living in a noisy world of advertising.The b







I disagree. We have two different ideas about what brainwashing is.



Dictionary.com says:

brain·wash·ing

-noun

1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.

2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.

3. an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.



It seems to agree with me?




The main point of that research was that not everyone approached by the Moonies (a crazycult) become members. That's not scifi.... ....Exactly the same point can be made with apparently less 'brainwashy' or mainstream churches like the pentecostals or methodists. If its brainwashing how come not everyone is recruited...or remains a member for life. ?





Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I meant that the idea of controlling someone to that extent - where you control their mind - sounded like science fiction. i.e. I don't think a person can be controlled like that

--------------------------------------------------------------
Marquis de Sade (Quills): Are your convictions so fragile they cannot stand in opposition to mine? Is your god so flimsy, so weak? For shame.
The Cuteness
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(Date Posted:11/07/2007 19:55:40)

Bloody hell I'm hungry now!

--------------------------------------------------------------
Marquis de Sade (Quills): Are your convictions so fragile they cannot stand in opposition to mine? Is your god so flimsy, so weak? For shame.
snakechic
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(Date Posted:11/07/2007 20:28:31)

Reply to : The Cuteness


I disagree. We have two different ideas about what brainwashing is.


I disgree......we have more than 2...


My linkie /definitions are bigger than your definitions...nah nah nah.... 


I've already posted this waaay  up there somewhere..you must have missed it.................................http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing



Criticism of claims of political brainwashing


According to research and forensic psychologist Dick Anthony, the CIA invented the concept of "brainwashing" as a propaganda strategy to undercut communist claims that American POWs in Korean communist camps had voluntarily expressed sympathy for communism. Anthony stated that definitive research demonstrated that collaboration by western POWs had been caused by fear and duress, and not by brainwashing. He argued that the books of Edward Hunter (a secret CIA "psychological warfare specialist" passing as a journalist) pushed the CIA brainwashing-theory onto the general public. He further asserts that for twenty years starting in the early 1950s, the CIA and the Defense Department conducted secret research (notably including Project MKULTRA) in an attempt to develop practical brainwashing techniques (possibly to counteract the brainwashing efforts of the Chinese), and that their attempt failed.



Brainwashing in the context of new religious movements and cults


Frequent disputes regarding brainwashing take place in discussion of cults and of new religious movements (NRMs). The controversy about the existence of cultic brainwashing has become one of the most polarizing issues among cult-followers, academic researchers of cults, and cult-critics. Parties disagree about the existence of a social process attempting coercive influence, and also disagree about the existence of the social outcome ? that people become influenced against their will.


The issue gets even more complicated due to the existence of several definitions of the term "brainwashing" (some of them almost strawman-caricature metaphors of the original Korean War era concept[8] ) and through the introduction of the similarly controversial concept of "mind control" in the 1990s. (In some usages "mind control" and "brainwashing" serve as exact synonyms; others usages differentiate the two terms.) Additionally, some authors refer to brainwashing as a recruitment method (Barker) while others refer to brainwashing as a method of retaining existing members (Kent 1997; Zablocki 2001).


Theories on brainwashing have also become the subject of discussions in legal courts, where experts have had to pronounce their views before juries in simpler terms than those used in academic publications and where the issue became presented in rather black-and-white terms in order to make a point in a case. The media have taken up some such cases ? including their black and white colorings.


In 1984, the British sociologist Eileen Barker wrote in her book The Making of a Moonie: Choice or Brainwashing? (based on her first-hand studies of British members of the Unification Church) that she had found no extraordinary persuasion techniques used to recruit or retain members.


See..that last reference..its the 'scifi' ...back to haunt you..


 



 





Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I meant that the idea of controlling someone to that extent - where you control their mind - sounded like science fiction. i.e. I don't think a person can be controlled like that





 


Cool...  then what's brainwashing?...not mind control? I agree..


 


This is a bit like how I see it.....



Social scientists who study new religious movements, such as Jeffrey K. Hadden (see References), understand the general proposition that religious groups can have considerable influence over their members, and that that influence may have come about through deception and indoctrination. Indeed, many sociologists observe that "influence" occurs ubiquitously in human cultures, and some argue that the influence exerted in "cults" or new religious movements does not differ greatly from the influence present in practically every domain of human action and of human endeavor.


 


 ... I'm tired as all hell!



 


 

--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
Shadowself
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(Date Posted:11/07/2007 21:22:32)

Reply to : The Cuteness


However, I still find sometimes when I'm really happy or excited about something I find myself in the nearest McDonalds. I can't really explain this behaviour - it puzzles me. It's almost like I don't know what to do with myself when I'm feeling euphoric - but why would I eat crap? I don't know!


Have you seen the movie Super Size Me?  A guy goes on a McDonalds-only diet for a month.   McDonalds three times a day, and no other food allowed.  He actually gets addicted to the stuff.  A lot of the flavors in their food aren't natural, but are chemicals created in a lab.  They know what they are doing.

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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
snakechic
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(Date Posted:11/08/2007 02:36:12)



movieSuper Size Me? A guy goes on a McDonalds-only diet for a month. McDonalds three times a day, and no other food allowed. He actually gets addicted to the stuff. A lot of the flavors in their food aren't natural, but are chemicals created in a lab. They know what they are doing.


I don't agree with the connections made. Any would feel overdosed after a silly film experiment like that..


Hell...you can die from drinking too much water...



SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Authorities in Sacramento County, Calif., are looking into the death of a woman who had competed in a radio station contest last week.



A medical examiner said the woman died of water intoxication. Water intoxication is a condition that causes the organs -- especially the brain -- to swell.



Jennifer Strange, 28, had taken part in a contest to see how much water she could drink without going to the bathroom.



Strange was found dead Friday in her suburban Rancho Cordova home hours after taking part in the "Hold Your Wee for a Wii"contest held by Sacramento radio station KDND FM.



Strange placed second in the contest.



"I feel horrible, you know, because you don't think water's going to kill you. You're having fun at the radio station trying to win a little contest. You don't think it's going to turn deadly," said Lucy Davidson, the contest's winner.



The station had promised a Nintendo Wii video game system for the winner.



The station's owner said staff members were stunned when they learned of the death.



It's not yet known how much water Strange consumed.


http://www.knbc.com/news/10761800/detail.html



 


 

--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
snakechic
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(Date Posted:11/08/2007 04:53:58)

Anyone suing their church/church leaders for their 'addiction' to religion? No?.... Don't think it would work do you?    Also for the record.. Brainwashing & Addiction are 2 different concepts - yes/no? I think they are...


Americans Real Addiction  is  suing others for problems brought on by their own behavior and choices.  says J Nelson in this article..



U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill to prevent people from suing fast-food companies because they believe the food makes them fat. ...


No one is forcing people to eat at these fast-food chains. Certainly, the companies spend a great deal on advertising -- most large businesses with a product to sell do. But even a snazzy commercial doesn't force a person into one of these stores -- that's a personal decision.


But do people take personal responsibility for their own and their children's weight problems? No, they sue and they demand that the government "do something."


Bring on the Nanny State!....Do people want the 'state' to look after them like babies? Protect and control every facet of their lives? I wouldn't like that...yuk! that's dictatorship. Do you trust the government that much? silly..chemicals are everywhere..eek! run!  a killer tomato is coming to get you...All processed foods contain some additives...some derived from 'real food'.. not to mention its presence  in the food chain - watch out for fish !   


this is interesting... .religious people may seek this kind of 'leadership'...?


 



Research in the area of religious addiction is deficient, however there were a few older related studies found in the literature. Simmonds (1977) reports that there is some evidence to indicate that "religious people in general tend to exhibit dependency on some external source of gratification" (p. 114). Black and London (1966) found a high positive correlation between the variables of obedience to parents and country and indices of religious belief such as church attendance, belief in God and prayer (p. 39). Goldsen, et al. (1960) showed that people who were more religious consistently showed tendencies toward greater social conformity than did the nonreligious, a finding consistent with the notion that religious people seek external approval.


 


Its also funny to read a xian worldview on this topic... that a RELIGIOUS  'addiction' is not healthy  because it takes away the focus of depending on god.!  


 


 


p.s....in case anyone is interested..the food fight...!


Lawyers debate on the topic ...source Yay..Mr Anderson!



Anderson, confident that he won the debate, ridiculed the comparison of heroin addiction to fast-food cravings that lead to obesity as "ridiculous" and "patently absurd."


"What he really did is draw an inaccurate conclusion and misinterpreted data by stretching the definition of the word addiction," Anderson argued, "so that under his view, looking at the sunset, listening to classical music or running in a 10K race could all be addictions."


"He deliberately blurred the definition between pleasure and addiction."


Anderson reiterated an observation he frequently made, that lawsuits filed in attempts to improve the nation's dietary regimen are misguided, harmful and ignore the real problem -- that Americans' lack of exercise and sedentary lifestyles are the root causes of obesity.


"If you talk to any dietitian or nutritionist, they will all tell you that there are no all-bad foods or all good-foods," he stressed. "The problem is bad diets."...........


 

--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
The Cuteness
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(Date Posted:11/08/2007 12:11:22)

Reply to : snakechic




Reply to : The CutenessI disagree. We have two different ideas about what brainwashing is.I disgree......we have more than 2...My linkie /definitions are bigger than your definitions...nah nah nah....I've already posted this waaay up there somewhere..you must have missed it.................................http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrainwashingCriticism of claims of political brainwashingAccording to research and forensic psychologist Dick Anthony, the







Well that's interesting. Maybe it's one of those terms that has been watered down since it was coined. Not that I care. I'll use my watered down definition.



I totally agree that the responsibility is on the individual, not the companies who sell the stuff. It's easy enough to turn the sound off on the TV while the adverts are on - that's what I do now. It seems a bit rich to blame someone else for what you do. Do you think there's a connection between that and the religious "be like a child" message. hmmm - just a thought...

--------------------------------------------------------------
Marquis de Sade (Quills): Are your convictions so fragile they cannot stand in opposition to mine? Is your god so flimsy, so weak? For shame.
snakechic