Hello all,

Thanks for reading my post. Yes, Oz is comparatively a secular place (<1% attend church & 15% describe themselves as atheists) but our fundamentalist minority is no less vocal & it was my misfortune to be born into such a family. However, as secular as Oz is (when looking at the decline of mainstream Christianity in the past 50yrs) the individual expression of "spirituality" now takes many (including non-Christian) forms. What gives me hope is not the declining church attendance records, but rather the proportion of those actively calling themselves atheists (they could have chosen "other" if they wanted). It is also notable, although disregarded by the government, that so many thousands of Australians gave their religion as Jedi knight or simply "the force" in the 2001 census that one must conclude that many don't take religion (or the census) too seriously. But does that mean that a comparatively "secular" society is any less conservative than a sectarian one?

"The difference between a religion and a cult is that a religion has more members"

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I'm glad you googled us up! Welcometo our little corner of the web. Hope you continue to post!

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Hello & thanks for those quotes appended to your message.

Weight loss is not going to just fall into your lap. Neither is happiness. You have to grab it for yourself or watch it slip by.--Phoenixgirl
Agreed, now the question becomes how does one attain a lasting happiness (there seem to be as many different diets as there are religions and all claim to be the right one:-)?

Q. If 3 frogs are sitting on a log & one frog decides to jump off, how many frogs are left sitting on the log?

A. Three. Why? A decision is not an action

"I have learned to love the stars too dearly to ever again fear the night"

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 Hillsong church, one of the major 'magachurches' in Sydney, even ended up wining a fucking ARIA the other year (ARIA is the Australian equivilent of a Grammy Award

From the inside Some churches are so fucked up and dangerous it's not funny.

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Both  john Howard (the Prime Minister of Aust) and Peter Costello( the chief treasurer and next in line for PM) have attented Hillsong. It was freaky watching them both 'slut' it  up for the fundie vote. http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1150747.htm

Pentecostalism is on the rise in Australia what worries me is that the general population seem to consider this kind of church pretty damn 'normal' or mainstream. Yeah and the media exposure of the success of a couple of them ( ie the Aria and X-factor crap) is adding to it. THe outcome of this exposure of pentecostal type churches...(Aog, Vineyard, Revival fellowships, crusades etc). is  a huge growth and appeal to  Young people -(link to chart). So its working well for that brand of fundamentalism.

I totally agree .......not funny ...but mention the word 'cult' and the politicians run for the hills....(sorry no pun intended) . Speaking in tongues is looking like being a second language in some areas....(joke) I think?

When I was a child my father was one of those nutters who stood on a street corner wearing an "end is nigh" sandwich board (as I soon learned, the end was always nigh) and preaching to all who passed by. He also has the habit of saying grace very loudly in public places like a McDonald's and was ever on the look-out for "signs of the times." Every earthquake, every catastrophe was a sure signal that the end day was nigh. If it rained too much, or too little, it was a sure sign of approaching apocalypse. Each year he still whips himself into a pious frenzy by attending the annual "second Coming Convention" which, in my opinion, is a bit like a department store holding an annual closing down sale.

Since I came from a small country town there was no hiding from my connection to him and even at school other kids would imitate him in the playground for a laugh (I survived by doing the best impersonations). It bothered me that if I did well at school it was only because god caused it, yet if I did poorly it was my fault; all the victories were god's and the defeats were mine alone. I still maintain that this type of fundamentalism is unhealthy for children since it undermines their self-confidence and ultimately robs them of hope. After all, if you lived each day as one day closer to the "end times" you tended to develop a pessimistic view of the future rather than seeing it as something potentially positive & empowering. I once asked my parents not long ago a simple question. If I knew someone who was interested in becoming a Christian, should I begin by telling them of god's love for them, or should I emphasize the eternal suffering awaiting those who don't choose correctly? The answer they gave was unhesitatingly "tell them of the terrors of hell, it worked for me." I was not surprised by their answer although I remain a little dismayed.

As my folks are now frail & elderly I know that they will not be around many more years & it is disappointing that I am unable to have a "real" conversation outside of any Christian context. In particular, it bothers me that they will go to the grave still desperately wanting me to follow their fundy ways. I know they are incapable of accepting (or even comprehending) my absence of belief & this distresses them greatly. Yet the only way I can alleviate their distress is to adopt their mindless religion - which I simply cannot do.

Have others faced this situation? What do you say?

I'm afraid I was one of those parents. Every part of my life was seen through all of that fundy crap. I couldn't accept people or my own children for who they were - I was always judging whether they were saved or not. Always lecturing about living a god like life. I am very ashamed of how I acted and the terrible things I said. I truly believed I was doing Gods will. Forced them to go to church.........

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My eldest is the one who began to bring up the very questions that strike terror in a fundies heart and pointed out I wasn't able to allow him to be himself. At the time I found out he was smoking pot on a regular basis and went into extreme fundy mode. It drove him from my house. Terrible times.......

 

I was already questioning things tho, and what he was saying out loud, I was too afraid to verbalize or really look at.

 

However when I left and began doing "ungodly" things, I worried my boys would see me as a hypocrite after all the preaching. I was concerned I would really fuck them up. I finally explained I didn't believe that way anymore, wasn't sure what I believed but I was in the process of changing.

 

I did get a note from my eldest about a year after leaving saying he really liked the new me. That was cool.

 

However here's what is going on now. He met some freak, a Young Life counselor (the man gives me the heebies) and all of a sudden my son is going to a fundy church and is a Young Lifer. He has become what I was. I called my girlfriend and was near hysteria...what is worse? Partying a little too much or going back to church????? I have to admit I am leaning towards going back to church...........

 

Of course this stirs up all of my fundy issues.......the old tapes play........raise up a child in the way he should go..........it's god trying to get me back......egad. Just shut up. I have imagined myself going to church with him and I freak out. I just can't see it ever happening. It would be death again.

 

Now my son is saying "what happened to you? I can't believe you've turned your back on god?" I remind him of the note he sent me. He changes my hard rock stations to the Christian bullshit. I was very firm and told him to never do it again. I did write a long letter to him........explaining where I am and why. He had no clue that the very thought of church sends me into high anxiety panic mode with waves of nausea. That when I drive by churches (all churches) I flip them off and have an urge to run over any Christians who might be walking in front of my car. Afterwards we spoke and he said now he understands and he backed off.

 

I don't know if this helps with your situation with your parents........I guess I have been really trying to take care of myself by explaining what I am going thru and here are my boundaries.

 

I guess I've had to be stern with my parents too. Politically.  I was raised in a REPUBLICAN home. OMG.  We didn't go to church and god wasn't a part of our life. However, to stray from being a republican is a sure ticket to hell!! While a fundy I loved the republican party. Even loved W for a time........but the war totally destroyed any warm fuzzies for the bastards.

 

It was very interesting to watch how my about face has affected my dad. I never tried to start any trouble........just began to drop hints I didn't agree.......but he was just like a fundy. In my face. Finally when they came to visit I had to get stern (with my dad??? OMG was that hard!!! I had to shore myself up with my self talk of.....you are an adult....44 years old.......you are not a child.......blah blah blah.......).

 

He was going to pack up and leave...they had just spent two days on the road to get here.......he was near tears........now I find it sort a funny........but at the time......NO! I explained I loved them more then anything, I didn't want them to leave but we had to agree to disagree and leave it at that. They didn't leave.......and we ended up having a great time. They still try to slip in their propaganda but I gently remind them. I am amazed to realize how damaging and similar the political stuff can be to the fundy stuff in how it affects people's ability to reason. I guess the reality is I was trained well to not question, but to have blind allegiance to something.

 

You know it has been very exhilarating to finally allow myself to be me!!! Scary and hard at times, but wonderful and empowering. Thanks for listening and allowing me to go on.

 

BTW - I lived in ffice:smarttags" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>Adelaide S.A. for 5 years when I was young. Beautiful and one of the best experiences of my life. My dream is to get back and see some old friends..........

 

 

Hello again,

I enjoyed reading Zeroist's reply since I hadn't (tried not to) consider the issue from my fundy parents' perspective even though I don't feel any closer to answering my original question of how to talk to those who will not listen. This is a very fundy problem since fundies feel they already know the truth and hence they don't need to listen to others - even their own children. At least Zeroist "saw the light" & escaped fundyism which cannot happen with my folks.

I can well understand the attraction to fundyism in providing a comforting set of "absolute" truths in an otherwise pluralist world and my parents are nothing if not simple folk whose sense of certitude is as admirable as it is terrifying. Yet their religion has always been a barrier to communication and as a result my parents seem almost like strangers to me since no non-religious conversation could extend beyond the weather or other small talk. I very quickly discovered that I needed to be independent since my parents' opinions were so predictable there was never any point in asking their advice. Similarly, since everything I said or did was invariably evaluated from their religious perspective I was continually being judged and so the lesson I learned was quite simple, if I had anything important to say - don't tell my parents.

Some years ago I was in a bad vehicle accident and while in the intensive care ward I was continually babbling "Don't tell my parents, I don't want them here." I didn't want their prayer vigils, I didn't want their hard sell religion & I didn't want them around while I was so vulnerable. When they learned that my vital signs had ceased on several ocassions they insisted that I must have some wonderful revelations to make of the after life & were not prepared to listen when I said I experienced nothing. It would be a good outcome if fundy parents became aware of how much they are damaging their children (or driving them away) but, quite frankly, many lack the insight to do so and, moreover, it would require a very non-fundy skill - to listen.

Very true & perhaps I am being a bit unfair on him since his motive was is well intented (although I'm aware this also excuses many other forms of interference justifiable and no).

If the house you were living in was on fire, then I think anyone would appreciate someone pounding on the door saying "your house is on fire, get out before it's too late!"
Maybe if my house was on fire & I was alerted to it I might be able to check for flames, or at least smoke & hence I would be very grateful for the warning; but how do I do a reality check on this "end is nigh" business? After all, how would you feel if someone hammered on your door at 3am shouting "Quick, evacuate your home now before the Magic Pink Unicorn arrives - or it will be too late!" I doubt may would appreciate this advice however well intentioned it might be.

Maybe most of them have given up on warning the world because nobody listens to them? Or is it because they've secretly given up on the second coming themselves?
Having been brought up in a family wherein the end was always nigh I discovered there comes a point of burn out. It's a bit like the boy who cried "wolf" too often until no one believed him

I think it is interesting you brought up the house on fire anology........that is what was used on us to get us out there witnessing!!! I was never good at it.

You are right about how the parents truly believe in what they are doing. I believed it with my whole heart. So when I was nattering on my children, it was because I didn't want them spending eternity in hell. I wanted gods perfect will for them in their lives.

Now I have to remind myself I once was one of those very annoying fundy's, judging everyone and every action through the litmus test of christianity ---- I have immense anger right now towards church and church people and in a sense have become as intolerant of them as I was of others as a fundy (hence my handle zeroist----it is a play on "I don't tolerate nothin' if I don't like it........so annoying people are top o' my list).

ttfn

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That's what's missing: the reality checking. All they have is the words in the bible they've interpreted to mean that the end is nigh. There's no taking this idea and being tough with it. If they did, they'd realize Christians have been proclaiming the end of the world since the first century CE. Realizing that would take a lot of the urgency out of their ideas, and you just can't have that!

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But they don't do they?

so there is something entirely different going on.  Whatever it is , its what is keeping them together and in church. I don't think reading the fucking bible whatever way (yourself or in a group) will have any effect.  Its the personal interpretation and power one gets from the so called ability to forsee the future.? I don't know. I don't think the bible holds the answer to the problem.....it is the problem.

My theory is that some people get a huge personal lift /personal esteem from belonging to a group who believe they know the future. That would be pretty hard to give up. Miracles and healings -----another huge draw card.

The way I see it is about 'escapism'. And Volt in my current city - they still do get in the town square and hold up placards - I suppose they are too busy to turn up every weekend. Church time is more important

Reply to Lahl

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So as well as being triggered by the xian factor (thats what 'X-Factor' stands for lol), it pisses me off that I helped lay a lot of the groundwork to promote xianity and stuff, and was rather well known in the industry back then, and I take it personally when I see people like Dralene Zschech winning an ARIA, and that the TV shows I helped start up and worked on are still on TV almost 10 years later.

So like I said, I take a lot of it personally, feel ashamed that I did my job too well on the wrong thing

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I can relate  - we all have made wrong choice or rather have regrets. I'm a child of fundies but I didn't participate in any of the 'doings' . Also the last effort with my fundie sister, I also didn't participate but that doesn't make it any easier for me - the effect of fundamentalism is crap and fucks up your life.

It must be hard on you to see that the work you put into that show is still going on.

Guy Sebastian REALLY pisses me off!

Reply to Faith no more

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I know they are incapable of accepting (or even comprehending) my absence of belief & this distresses them greatly. Yet the only way I can alleviate their distress is to adopt their mindless religion - which I simply cannot do.

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No I could n't either. My last run in with fundamentalism has meant that I have been 'shunned'..........heehee not a good thing if you want to maintain a relationship with the fundie family. But in the end its a good thing, I can be my own person and I'm proud of myself for saying NO!

The whole experience of being 'excluded' this way has been a very interesting  journey. I have no sympathy or idea left that xianity is a healthy thing for the community. In the end the fundie xians show themselves as they are.....naked....without the gloss and self promtion that goes into xianty. I 've often wondering what would happen to xianity if xians refused to 'promote' it. My experience has been that fundies cannot bear disagreement and need to be around people of like mind. Without that constant verification of their brand of reality all would be lost. So when I hear 'I only want what's best for you' and the "I'm saving you from burning' its all about them and how they cann't cope.

Back to carrying water

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My experience has been that fundies cannot bear disagreement and need to be around people of like mind. Without that constant verification of their brand of reality all would be lost. So when I hear 'I only want what's best for you' and the "I'm saving you from burning' its all about them and how they cann't cope.

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