Reply to : ridingawave

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Hello,I came across this place after poking around this type of subject matter for the past year or so.I'm not sure if I ever was a beleiver.

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Hi....good to meet you!  

I can relate to a fair bit of your intro........yeah ...the bit about 'authority issues'........Good on you Mate!! Well done - I think that a positive & something to pass onto your kids!!!   I think that's where I also...as a kid didn't swallow the story hook, line and sinker.....& until I made some more recent discoveries..I didn't really "know" that folks really take all that bible stuff literally either.. I saw a lot of hypocrisy - kids see all that!.............yep..  Its so silly when you think about the 'talking snake'..etc...Everything!

Anyway....you sound very tenacious which I also can relate to - someone who doesn't easily give up..!............Asking questions  is great &  discovering for yourself!

Yeah. 'religion'..amazing stuff to think about......I took it all pretty much for granted, that I was 'out'... until it bit me on the arse a few years ago.

Glad you joined up....Enjoy waff.!

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Reply to : ridingawaveHello,I came across this place after poking around this type of subject matter for the past year or so.I'm not sure if I ever was a beleiver.Hi....good to meet you!I can relate to a fair bit of your intro........yeah ...the bit about 'authority issues'........Good on you Mate!! -I think thats a big positive & something to pass onto your kids!!! I think that's where I also...as a kid didn't swallow the story hook, line and sinker.....& until I made some more recent discoveries..I didn't really "know" that folks really take all that bible stuff literally either.. I saw a lot of hypocrisy - kids see all that!.............yep..&n

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Thanks for the Welcome Snake,

I'm stoked to be here. I'll probally just read around and get the feel of the place for a while, be a taker rather than a giver as I try to figure out if I have anything to add.

It is interesting that you saw the Authority Issues as an asset. I never really thought about it that way, because it was not seen that way in regard to Religion and many other aspects of life. I always looked @ new rules as an oppertunity to find new loopholes, and loophole are just oppertunties that are not apparent to everyone. One thing that is interesting about loophole is that they are of no value if they are apparent or the rules that created them are removed. If everyone sees them then there is not oppertunity and if the rule is lifted the oppertunity goes away.

Another thing that is interesting about that thought, and it has alot of relavence to where I am now with respect to god and relgion, is that I really feel like relgion is good for some people, be it true or not. I, as probally everybody here have, notice that new found relgion has had positive effects on drug addicts and the rehablitation of some career criminals. It seems to give some hope to some people that are in hopeless situations. It is like it is an easy superfical fix, and much of the population only want this. It's problem has more to do with the need of it's adhereants needing to convert others to their brand of belief to feel validated. But I'm sure that all of this is dicussed w/in the forums somwhere.

Anyhow I'm stoked to be here, and thanks for the welcome Snake

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It is interesting that you saw the Authority Issues as an asset. I never really thought about it that way, because it was not seen that way in regard to Religion and many other aspects of life. I always looked @ new rules as an oppertunity to find new loopholes

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You're very welcome....

I think we are basically on the same wave length regarding the issues of authority.....but to make myself a little clearer..I mean that its a good thing to NOT immediately obey authority...and perhaps look at 'authority' in a different way entirely:- as something to question, critically examine and when necessary disregard as being 'authorities' at all. ie. religious leaders, parents, rules/guidelines..written or otherwise..etc etc etc.... I basically think 'authority' structures make people behave  with some 'knee jerk' reaction and stops many people thinking for themselves.....Its like a habit?  Hope that makes it clearer..

Yeah....Enjoy this chatroom!!!!

Reply to : ridingawave

Hi, I relate to your expereinces in realising that the bible need not be taken seriously and like you, Age of Reason was a major affirmation of that feeling.  Taking the bible stories as metaphors, Jesus teachings can be seen as representative of the need to question authority and, the stories of the OT could exemplify the difference between living by 'the law' or living by 'love'.  Welcome

Hello Red it is a pleasure to meet you,

Hello Snake thanks for the follow up,

I'm think that I understood what you ment. I always regulated my behavior from within and just knew weather I was doing right or wrong. The formalization of rules never is able to cover all situations, so It has always put the whole rule book in question. I think that Ispent a long portion of my life really believing that everyone knew the rule book was flawed and that it was only a guide. That every thing had to be looked @ on a case by case basis. This personal outlook only really started to crumble in my twenties when the judge threaten to put me in jail for argueing with him. I had been caught driving without an insurance card, but had insurance in force. He ordered me to pay a fine that was very stiff for me at the time, I was a poor college student, and my 'crime" was completely victimless. I think that as I was threated with jail for this offense, I realized that my worldveiw was not really compatable with how the world works. I realized that all of these flawed edicts are handed down basicly because everyone cannot trust anyone to use their own minds and judgments.

If, as Red said, that the bible is mined for the good things that it has to convey, it could be useful, but as Thomas Paine said, it doesn't contain any more goodness or morality than the averge other book on the subject of goodness or morality. I really wish I could understand why most people, it seems, do not share this outlook. It seems that most people really want everything spelled out for them very perscriptively. And this just does not work, there are too many "what if's"

I did not mean to scare you, Snake with the loophole discussion. I just figured if I was gonna be held to absolute obiedance to the technicalities of the rule book, I'd operate on the technicalities level also. I am a very loving and moral person, Everyone that I know would think that, I think.

Reply to : ridingawave

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 I realized that all of these flawed edicts are handed down basicly because everyone cannot trust anyone to use their own minds and judgments.

If, as Red said, that the bible is mined for the good things that it has to convey, it could be useful, but as Thomas Paine said, it doesn't contain any more goodness or morality than the averge other book on the subject of goodness or morality. I really wish I could understand why most people, it seems, do not share this outlook. It seems that most people really want everything spelled out for them very perscriptively. And this just does not work, there are too many "what if's"

I did not mean to scare you, Snake with the loophole discussion. I just figured if I was gonna be held to absolute obiedance to the technicalities of the rule book, I'd operate on the technicalities level also. I am a very loving and moral person, Everyone that I know would think that, I think.

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Yeah....I see what you mean regarding your example of the traffic law violation...........Interesting to read your point of view. .  I think to be threatened with jail just because you argued with the judge  - is about the authority figure - the position of power and trying to maintain that. Obviously the judge was concerned about making you pay the fine as well as you 'respecting' his position  - that's how I think the legal system works. $$$......ie.  If you had the means to pay for legal representation in your case...the judge may have treated you &  your case differently? Who knows!

Yeah...ThomasPaine says something that is basic commonsense.....the bible doesn't contain anymore 'goodness' than any other book. And as a book it fails on many, many levels.  I don't believe the book is inspired by anything divine or supernatural...or any of those outlandish claims. As a rule book ..its waaay out of date and imo...quite barbaric & contradictory.

Nah....Ring...you didn't scare me. Loopholes -  that is exactly what the legal profession relies on to justify their existence as a profession! .......... I know what you mean.......I think its probably a fairly good tactic to use if you are in the environment in which you live in.  Me...I'm probably more bombastic and at this stage of my life..would need to say my piece and disregard the 'rule book' stuff altogether.  I don't need to comply..or look like I comply with any kind of religiosity....especially their 'rules'. .........I have in the past sought legal advice about the 'loopholes'...

In your previous post you said...

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Another thing that is interesting about that thought, and it has alot of relavence to where I am now with respect to god and relgion, is that I really feel like relgion is good for some people, be it true or not. I, as probally everybody here have, notice that new found relgion has had positive effects on drug addicts and the rehablitation of some career criminals. It seems to give some hope to some people that are in hopeless situations. It is like it is an easy superfical fix, and much of the population only want this. It's problem has more to do with the need of it's adhereants needing to convert others to their brand of belief to feel validated. But I'm sure that all of this is dicussed w/in the forums somwhere.

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I think its personal choice & subjective how the person feels about their 'religion'. But...I'm pretty sure its inconsistent - in other words ...change and fluctuation is inevitable. People go through a lot of it - face many doubts and inner turmoil, ...and put in a lot of effort to maintain their 'faith'................to me...it looks like  hard work.! To keep down the problems and all the questions and keep up appearances.  etc.. etc... So yeah..ya would need a fair bit of 'validating'...to get though it all.

Yes.....for a long time, the evangelicals  - the believers.....have been busting their guts to get into the jail system and convert the 'criminal'....or take advantage of the very vulnerable person in times of crisis..ie. hit rock bottom with an addiction or personal /emotional problems.  Unfortunately ..the 'support' offered is self serving to the religion - praying, working for the church, etc. etc.... If the individual happens to fail..or fall off the course...or behave in anyway that is against the status quo...I'd say with a fair bit of certainty....that the individual is held responsible - blamed.  I also don't agree with christian based therapy's....including AA. I've had first hand experiences with the method of christian 'support'..or family ties used to convert and control.  I'm also not real keen on the way people in dire circumstances are treated as 'charity' cases..or put up as 'advertising' how well their church works.

Isn't that one of the main underlying issues of 'authority'....to control & change behaviour/beliefs etc.    I see 'believer's' take on some kind of external authority just because they claim to 'feel' god. You know...all that speaking on behalf of god. Knowing what god wants in any given moment.....the 'pastor' leading/feeding people with his interpretations or using emotional means to try and cause people to feel all kinds of stuff... and to discipline and teach.  This is where I pause......the so called authority of the religious leader/ pastor. I think its given to them waaaay too easily,  slapped on at the end of their bible training or when Papa dies and leaves them the family church business...... ...... For example...its seem so 'natural' to trust the person in this kind of position.....that parents of young children and others...fail to act in accordance to their personal responsibility. How can I put it...its as if.....upon entering a congregation, adults give up being adults. I'm talking about all the abuse..the advantages taken by people in positions of authority to push their 'cause'.........................and yeah to feel validated and/or powerful.?

That was my little rave on .... ... feel free to do like wise...

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...speaking on behalf of  their god

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Maybe you are right. I was gonna tell you about this bottom of the barrell alcohol soaked previously smart guy I know that relgion helped, but it only helped him for a little while, and he is gonna die soon. It is really sad.

And come to think of it I got off the sauce without relgion or AA, and in fact soberity lead me away from Jesus. I guess I really went off half cocked on that one.

I have noticed that many of the bums that I pass during the day kinda smell boozy, but about half of 'em will say "bless you" or tell me how they just got baptised.

Maybe relgion makes you drink?

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Reply to : snakechic... I was gonna tell you about this bottom of the barrell alcohol soaked previously smart guy I know that relgion helped, but it only helped him for a little while, and he is gonna die soon. It is really sad.

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Yeah...that is sad.. A lot of good people die from the disease. I had a  pal who died some years back...its reminded me of him.  I think its a lottery ticket! & I don't think of a minute that people are 'bums' just because they are out of control - addicted.  A lot of outstanding people throughout history have managed to be responsible citizens while harbouring a huge drinking habit...take Winston Churchill..he managed to win the war against Hitler while at the same time being depressed or as he's say  fall under the 'black dog' and drink to oblivion most nights.

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And come to think of it I got off the sauce without relgion or AA, and in fact soberity lead me away from Jesus. I guess I really went off half cocked on that one.I have noticed that many of the bums that I pass during the day kinda smell boozy, but about half of 'em will say "bless you" or tell me how they just got baptised.Maybe relgion makes you drink?

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That makes sense to me...there are heaps and heaps of people getting off grog, drugs etc...without the need for christianity/religion.  ...having a clear head might make all the difference to getting away from religion.... but I'm sure some folks who choose to drink also find religion hard to swallow and don't necessarily go to church or follow along.

I don't know if religion 'makes' anyone drink....but it sure as hell doesn't help em' get off it for long.

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Reply to : snakechic            ...that people are 'bums' just because they are out of control - addicted

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As a first qualifier snakey, I would like to say that I geuninely like you. I can tell you are a little feisty and that leads me to believe that I had better be careful as to my phrasing. ..make sure that I'm not half cocked. I also like you, because you have been my only source of dialog since I checked in here, and I do not want to alienate that. ..so now

I feel a little judged. I had no intention of implying that an addicted person is a bum. When I used the term "bum" I was describing the streotypical bum. You know the guy that sleeps on the benchs and urinates on himself and asks for handouts. I live in an urban area and I know our population of 'em. Some of these guys are just addicts, I suppose, but some have other issues, I do not know nor do I profess to know. I know many addicts that have not ended up on the park bench, and again I do not profess to know what seperates the types. If it is more pleasing or acceptable I could of used a very long more descriptive term like "alcoholic homeless person that has given up on soceity", but I do not believe that alcoholism is a diesese, so that term really did not work from my perspective either. I usally do not waste alot of time with the crafted presentation of a thought as I tend to opperate more on intent and intuition, as I was sort of describing earlier. So I used the term bum to describe the sterotypical bum, I guess the wording was a little un P.C.

But that is the end of my rant and please don't go away. I hope we all are smiling and happy .  

 I'd rather put out the information in a way that self filters the superficial. You' dbe surprised how well it works. I was a science major so I neglected assigning a lot of importance to grammer spelling and so forth. It' s amazing how many people associate good grammer w/ intelligence. I guess my 7th grade english teacher was the smartest person in the world.

And then in another little box. All drinkers are not relgious nor do I think drinking really makes people drink. I have had a little experience with booze and feel like a know a little bit about it. Not to be some kind of authority on it or even would I offer any advice. I think that addition is what you make of it. Not to make light of the power of any drug. There really may be places of no return like meth for example. A user is damn near hopless to recover. In my experience I resisted accepting the label and the dieses model of alcoholism, which is a death nail and not recoverable. That label steals the hope of the addict and creates a downward sprial in which there is no recovery. It gives the addict an excuse and his own personal satan in which he can blame for his misfortune. Alcohol is a powerful drug, no doubt. It's power is trivalized by much of soceity and is abused on a global scale. As I spent time obcessivly learning about it I came to relize that it's mystic and all that surrounds it is very much like the mystique of relgion in that the mystic creates self fullfilling prophcey as people line up and take sides and apply their labels conciously or not. These labels are very powerful once they are accepted. No one is immune.

If Winston Churchhill had accepted the alcoholic label, I seriously doubt he would have functioned as he did. This world does not like anything to be independant of labels. It has to group things together and put them into a box. That is what I deem to be the biggest problem of humanity, in my humble intuitive view. I like the big picture view. I do not know if this is the way I was born or just came from me not really trusting anything I was told to be true, as I was fed lots of bullshit. I'm not so stupid that I believe that the world will change and turn into a eutopia as we cast off the bullshit that we are fed, I frankly think that the oppisite is happening and that we spend more time protecting the little boxes and creating new ones that it half way makes me wonder if that isn't the concept that the myth of orginal sin was trying to convey. If it is looked at figuratively. Maybe Christ, before all the myths and boxes were created around him was trying to say that. There really is very little that is important in this world beyond the relationships and interactions that we have. Most of the time we spend tying to make sense of it is just time wasted. We all know what it right and wrong so why not just act accordingly and let the rest take care of itself? I think that it is because we have some kind of need to package things up in boxes. Write rules and tell everyone else about our realizations.

Those are just a few thoughts on it, most may be really off or half baked, but if I was an expert I'd write a book and bind it into the bible.

Don't be pissed @ me Snakey, I'm  just a smartass, I really would like to thank you for taking the time to comment on my ramblings.

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. Thanks for telling your story!

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Thanks smokin',

 I really liked what you said. It was exactly what I was trying to say in my last rambling.

Welcome to the forum ridingawave!   So many of us were screwed up by religion when we were young, as evidenced in your story of being pressured into getting "saved" so young that you don't even remember the experience, and at being taken to a strange church whether you liked it or not.  Then they wonder why we leave once we get older.

Reply to : ridingawave

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In my experience I resisted accepting the label and the dieses model of alcoholism, which is a death nail and not recoverable. That label steals the hope of the addict and creates a downward sprial in which there is no recovery. It gives the addict an excuse and his own personal satan in which he can blame for his misfortune. Alcohol is a powerful drug, no doubt. It's power is trivalized by much of soceity and is abused on a global scale. As I spent time obcessivly learning about it I came to relize that it's mystic and all that surrounds it is very much like the mystique of relgion in that the mystic creates self fullfilling prophcey as people line up and take sides and apply their labels conciously or not. These labels are very powerful once they are accepted. No one is immune.

If Winston Churchhill had accepted the alcoholic label, I seriously doubt he would have functioned as he did. This world does not like anything to be independant of labels. It has to group things together and put them into a box. That is what I deem to be the biggest problem of humanity, in my humble intuitive view. I like the big picture view. I do not know if this is the way I was born or just came from me not really trusting anything I was told to be true, as I was fed lots of bullshit. I'm not so stupid that I believe that the world will change and turn into a eutopia as we cast off the bullshit that we are fed, I frankly think that the oppisite is happening and that we spend more time protecting the little boxes and creating new ones that it half way makes me wonder if that isn't the concept that the myth of orginal sin was trying to convey. If it is looked at figuratively. Maybe Christ, before all the myths and boxes were created around him was trying to say that. There really is very little that is important in this world beyond the relationships and interactions that we have. Most of the time we spend tying to make sense of it is just time wasted. We all know what it right and wrong so why not just act accordingly and let the rest take care of itself? I think that it is because we have some kind of need to package things up in boxes. Write rules and tell everyone else about our realizations.

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. ..so nowI feel a little judged. I had no intention of implying that an addicted person is a bum. When I used the term "bum" I was describing the streotypical bum. You know the guy that sleeps on the benchs

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that's  okay lets figure this out...................you did say you felt you were OCD in your first post. and "when I put my head to something I am at it until I get it figured out."

Judged?   That's no good mate..! .. .  Very often you'll find that   I also don't work on 'crafted presentation" .  

I think you totally missed my point.....I was  basically agreeing with you -   And had my own (largely undisclosed) sad story about my friend who died years ago. I was offering you an idea that I had my own experiences & had some empathy - that's not something you have to take for me. That's cool. 

Yeah ..me too!.... "I know many addicts that have not ended up on the park bench, and again I do not profess to know what seperates the types." ..I also have  heaps of friends who are dependent on alcohol. I don't actually like the way society generally stereotypes anyone...particularly the mentally ill and people who use drugs and alcohol. ..Note :- I don't like to call people simply 'addicts'.....So who is using boxes?  (don't get it)

I actually didn't use the term 'alcoholic' in reference to anyone in my last post ...including Winston Churchill  & ( There are forty ways to look at Winston Church    ..its a rather flippant label.....which doesn't describe the very unique &  individual relationship people have with the drug. I do call it a disease...because the drug has  addictive properties and people can become 'sick' using it. ie. liver & brain damage. I prefer the word 'dependent' and in regards to WC that probably applies...but yeah...people imo can have a very active 'dependency' to their drug of choice...ie. 6  scotches, followed by 8 beers every night after work and still function.

In my opinion ...Winston Church  a great role model  or a very interesting human being..- he was a sufferer of depression which I would guess he used drink to self medicate. That was my intent  - to offer his example..his humanity.  ..that drinking or mental illness is not a weakness or something I would 'value' judge.

"Black Dog" was Churchill's name for his depression, and as is true with all metaphors, it speaks volumes. The nickname implies both familiarity and an attempt at mastery, because while that dog may sink his fangs into one's person every now and then, he's still, after all, only a dog, and he can be cajoled sometimes and locked up other times.

In those days.. Drinking a shit load.... was more accepted by society (if not condoned)  ..so I very much doubt he had deal with the same social problems 'drinkers' have today.  There is more information around regarding the health risks of drinking etc...

interesting..

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And then in another little box. All drinkers are not relgious nor do I think drinking really makes people drink.

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YEp......that's about what I wrote in my last post  too.........( Its good that you clarified the point you were trying to make)

That makes sense to me...there are heaps and heaps of people getting off grog, drugs etc...without the need for christianity/religion.  ...having a clear head might make all the difference to getting away from religion.... but I'm sure some folks who choose to drink also find religion hard to swallow and don't necessarily go to church or follow along.

I don't know if religion 'makes' anyone drink....but it sure as hell doesn't help em' get off it for long.

Talking about  as you say......"That label steals the hope of the addict" How about  referring to people as 'addicts'. ?  Isn't that also a strong label ...just the same as 'alcoholic'. ? I think so...I think it has a very definate 'judgement' factor - its very cut and dry. Yukky..!

 Yeah..I agree 'labels' can be very damaging...but I don't agree that "no one is immune'.......I can refuse to play that game and make sure (for example) I don't accept other people's  judgements or labels,  nor  do  I let it control me.  I think very definitely ..you can disallow yourself to be controlled or manipulated by others.  Refuse it... (that's something I've come to after many years of putting up with crap)  Yep..I also have a bit of 'insider' info about the topic.

Me....I don't like the way  the term 'HELP" is used by some people..........all these people are trying to 'help' you.? ..........I think in the end,  all it does is cause  the individual to  feel 'helpless'..

Learned 'helplessness'...operates well within religious organisations..as well as affiliated social services. Even the term 'charity' has conotations of an hiearchy of sorts.

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We all know what it right and wrong so why not just act accordingly and let the rest take care of itself? I think that it is because we have some kind of need to package things up in boxes. Write rules and tell everyone else about our realizations.

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Yeah...I don't much like reading rules......and say that I don't think I know what is "right and wrong" ....not always...SOmetimes a have a shit of time trying to figure things out. A lot about life is 'grey'......multicoloured!   At least that's how I see it.   That's how come sharing is so fun...trying to see the other's point of view - if possible. I don't mind listening  to other's and their 'realisations'..(or reading ramblings') .I don't have to take em' on board.  EasyPeasy...

I very much doubt everyone has the same idea of what is 'right and wrong'.................and wouldn't it be a boring old  world if they did.

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Don't be pissed @ me Snakey, I'm just a smartass, I really would like to thank you for taking the time to comment on my ramblings.

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Ditto...& thanks for mis reading mine...(joke)..

YOu're very welcome Raw ...(that's a fun annogram) ...like I said.......I don't mind reading your ramblings ...I think ramblings..is where its at! Good be let loose and be yourself..explore subjects and hopefully along the way.....have a bit of fun too.  I think to take everything written here ...without a good smack of 'enjoyment' is missing the point of being online.

Yeah..I'm out there  ...being me !