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Title: I'm little John
  
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John Rian
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Registered: 11/02/2004
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(Date Posted:11/03/2004 05:23:25)

Hi,Here is my story so far... From my Blog:http://thelittleheretic.blogspot.com/My name is John but most in the forum community know me simply as "little." My History and ascent from Fundyism. I was raised Missouri synod Lutheran, had a "born again" experience at the age of 18 and promptly set off into the Charismatic-Pentecostal type churches, and quickly became disillusioned with the false claims after this I spent a short period investigating the claims of British Israelism and quickly discerned its racists tendencies. During my twenties, I was very much into Dispensational Pre-millennial and fundamental bible churches, primarily of the I.C.E. variety modeled after the teachings of Col R.B. Thieme Jr.In my twenties, I "backslid" only to rebound as a weak evangelical with a major guilt complex. This would effect the remainder of my Christian walk.So for the greater part of 16 years I was a conservative fundamentalist Christian of a Calvinistic-Darbyist variety. Yet for about the past 10 of those years, I have suffered from disillusion after disillusion primarily dealing with doctrine but also tiring of how one group will condemn to hell all others who are not of their brand. In all of this, and from every quarter, there is claimed a "proper exegesis" of the bible. This is now evident to me and It really speaks volumes about how insecure the Church really is regarding the faith even as regards the doctrine of salvation.Many of my internal conflicts regarding my prior Christian walk were also due to the evident dissonance between doctrine and logic, and because of the fear of hell I would always stuff the questions I should not ask, leading to further frustration and ultimately to resentment. I started really having problems early on as a Christian, the typical doubts and fears were for me especially acute due to a naturally critical mind, I've always asked "why" and wondered "what if." After my back sliding episode in my mid twenties I really began to question my security as a believer and slipped into an obsessive search of biblical doctrine in order to find some peace and stability, but this search seemed to mostly be elusive as I became more and more aware of the general fear and contention in the Church at large over doctrine. It seemed that no one really had a clue. I really began to feel that I was alone with my angst an questions and apparently so was everyone else, regardless of the platitudes and smiles. The latest of my internal struggles was an intense obsession about eternal damnation which would creep up on me off and on. This resulted in another conflict because I found myself thinking "I wouldn't wish an eternal hell on my worst enemy." Of course that brought up questions about the justice and love of a God that would do this, yet I would react with pious feelings of guilt for entertaining the objection. This obsession really started hard core after my "back- sliding" episode though I experienced it many times before, only to a lesser degree. In my late twenties I got Married and sought out a path toward being an uber-conservative from a desire to raise a wholesome family like the ones I knew from childhood friends that I had. And then... It happened The straw that broke the camel's back... As I tried to be an uber-con Christian I began to realize that I really couldn't fit in there anymore. This was the result of being confronted with fundamentalist ideas and fundies who would tell me that I was "living in sin" because I have married a divorcee. They seemed to imply that I should up and divorce my Wife and ruin my children's lives because of some letter of the law interpretation of the bible. I am totally convinced that it is an unreasonable demand and heartless, regardless if "the bible says it" or not. My own pastor at that time (not exactly a flaming liberal) had no problem with Marrying us, and he is a very good man and one of the best examples of Christ I have ever known. Yet I'm sure he would disapprove of the direction my path has taken of late. Anyway, this fundie thumb in my eye set me into another of my many internal conflicts and one that would pit my Family against my God, such that in my heart of hearts I felt that what I was being asked to do was akin to being commanded to murder someone because "the bible says so." Thus I began to even more obsessively contemplate hell and all of its horrors as I clung to the doctrine of eternal security. But this doctrine didn't even offer me solace because of all the debate and theological confusion within the church and apparently the bible itself. Slowly I began to think, and later confirm to my satisfaction, that the bible plainly contradicts itself. Yet I maintained faith and even piously debated atheists on a secular forum and it was there that an atheist walked me to my illogical conclusions. I visited the Internet Infidels to "teach them a lesson" about what true Christianity was, even though I was confused about it myself. As it It turned I was the one who would be attending the class and not teaching it. While there I really began to be forced to critically look at what I believe, they are not a sympathetic bunch to say the least, and I thank them for it. As for my confusion during this time, I would wrestle with the questions about my own salvation or lack of it even as I claimed and contended that I knew something that all the other Christians that have visited the infidels didn't. As a result of these experiences and many others unmentioned I have decided to read wide and exclude no source, my search has begun and ironically this search is in part also due to encouragement from the Christians in my life who have regarded me as something of a "thinker" and that I could become a great "mind for Christ." Whatever that means? However, they never realized that my questioning and reading and thinking was due to a desperate search for spiritual survival. The contradictions in doctrine and the bible and the illogic and injustice of many teachings make-up my angst. Also the complete ignorance that Christians exhibit about most everything especially the bible and history. I don't claim to be the brightest spark, these are just observations. I'm also tired of being told I can't believe in idea "X" when I see no reason why I shouldn't... For example, evolution, I see no rational reason why I should reject evolution, in fact just the opposite is true, it seems more reasonable to accept it. Also regarding science, I've even been told by the bible beaters that stars are not other suns because the bible says they are merely lights put in heaven for a sign and are about the size of a fig. This again is because "the bible says so." Science be damned! Well not for me anyway. I know that in astronomy we are told that there is observed a red-shift doppler effect of the Galaxies as they speed away at a rate so fast that the waves of light coming from their collection of stars are shifted or "Stretched" to the longer wavelength (i.e. red) side of the light spectrum. This, coupled with how long it takes for light to travel in one year works strongly against the bible's view of cosmology. Facts is Facts people, the God that created the physics of the universe is not a liar. And this is just one speck of all the heaping mounds of evidence that stand against much that the bible beaters believe. Today I sometimes feel that I am inches away from agnosticism and the strange thing is that I am not afraid, not even a little. In fact I am even a little exhilarated at the prospect of not having to obsess over the bible and lame apologetics and hell and hating certain groups of people while pretending to "love" them. Through these logical and theological difficulties I have become convinced that a loving God will not send anyone to hell for-ever to be tormented. So that now makes me a universalist and a heretic. This is where I am today, tomorrow who knows. Let orthodoxy be damned on the pyre of truth. I say Heterodox Shmeterodox! Today I am a heretic, and so be it! little JohnP.S.I posted this last monthon my blog, since then Ihave confirmed in my thoughts that I am an Agnostic.
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zarathustra
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(Date Posted:11/03/2004 21:57:04)

Hey littlejohn.  Welcome to the forum!

Sorry for the late welcome but we've been busy with the apre-election orgies and masturbation frenzies.  Not that anyone feels like a winner...

So welcome!



I visited the Internet Infidels to "teach them a lesson" about what true Christianity was, even though I was confused about it myself. As it It turned I was the one who would be attending the class and not teaching it. While there I really began to be forced to critically look at what I believe, they are not a sympathetic bunch to say the least, and I thank them for it.


They're a nasty lot, to say the least!  I like hanging out there but my atheism hasn't yet got hard core enough to really be a regular contributor over there.


 



I visited the Internet Infidels to "teach them a lesson" about what true Christianity was, even though I was confused about it myself. As it It turned I was the one who would be attending the class and not teaching it. While there I really began to be forced to critically look at what I believe, they are not a sympathetic bunch to say the least, and I thank them for it.



BTDT.  My last pastor was trying to convince me to go to Scotland to get a Doctorates.  I gave him 2 theological puzzles to solve and he gagged. 

When you think about it, to accept religion you must first suspend at least a portion of rational thought to get to the point of believing unprovable supernatural claims.

Indeed.  Leggo and leggod.

Enjoy the forum, I look forward to hearing more from you!

~z

--------------------------------------------------------------
And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host saying, "You guys are in a world of shit now!"

gregpstone
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(Date Posted:11/03/2004 23:14:12)

Reply to : -little John-

As a result of these experiences and many others unmentioned I have decided to read wide and exclude no source, my search has begun and ironically this search is in part also due to encouragement from the Christians in my life who have regarded me as something of a "thinker" and that I could become a great "mind for Christ." Whatever that means?

Welcome.

All you have to do is read the Bible with an open mind to perceive that most Christian dogma is manmade and only connected to that errant book in the most tortured, heavily edited and tenuous way.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We've all got holes to fill
Them holes are all that's real
Some fall on you like a storm
Sometimes you dig your own

Where ya been is good and gone
All you keep is the gettin there ..... To Live is to Fly - Townes Van Zandt

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phoenixgirl
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(Date Posted:11/05/2004 17:50:00)

Welcome to the forum!

I think that your current state of mind will foster a much more "wholesome" environment for raising a family than bouncing from fundamentalist doctrine to doctrine could ever do.

I liked what you said about hating people while pretending to love them . . . how true!

I know that the time period just after you finally accept your inability to believe can be stressful, yet also exhilarating.  Feel free to share the ups and downs with us. 

--------------------------------------------------------------
--Phoenixgirl

"I am influenced at the present time by far higher considerations and by a nobler idea of duty than I ever was when I held the Evangelical belief." George Eliot
"I have one great fear in my heart, that one day when they are turned to loving, they will find we are turned to hating." Alan Paton's Cry, the Beloved Country (I promise I read this before it was an Oprah book club book)

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