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Shadowself
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(Date Posted:12/18/2006 05:06:58)
The white suburban church I used to attend wasn't overtly racist, but many of the people did hold racist views, though they never would have admitted it. This used to irritate me to no end, as I felt that since our city was 20-25% black and our congregation was the only one of my denomination there, it should represent the population of the area. In the 14 years I attended, we only had one black family that were regular attenders for a few years until they moved. I suppose, at least in America, the church reflects the culture it's part of, and I don't think that white America as a whole has come to terms yet with it's past and present attitudes towards race.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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Freedom from Chains
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(Date Posted:12/18/2006 05:46:41)
Reply to : Shadowself
I don't think that white America as a whole has come to terms yet with it's past and present attitudes towards race.
And it will still be sometime before it does. Keep in mind that when talking about societal change, 50 years is a very short period of time. It has already been 50 years since the civil rights act. And it took a hundred years before that until our society got to the point where it was even willing to think in terms of civil rights. And it's not just our society that is like that. I have read much of Roman history where from the beginning of a change in social attitudes and implementation of them could well be a period of time any where from 100 - 300 hundred years. So in the grand scheme of things we have made progress but there is still a ways to go.
But with improved communication systems and other aspects of technological advancements we should be able to speed those time frames up. That is of course assuming that we don't exterminate ourselves first, which as it stands right now I think that is a big if.
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The problem is not so much that people know to little, it"s that they know so damn much that just ain"t so. Mark Twain
Atheists are not atheist because they haven"t read the Bible but because they have.
If you see the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. - Phil Jackson
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Jezebel Rising
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(Date Posted:12/18/2006 21:52:05)
Does this remind you of the cult you were part of? Christian Party Father's Manifesto <  thanks to Shadowself for posting this here in the first place, but I thought setting up a link here is a good idea)
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"I"m not a witch, but I wish I was. If I live I"d be a witch now after what they have done. I"ll burn their crops and kill their animals. I"ll stir up such storms. I"ll scatter their ships across the world. If I could meet with the devil right now, I would give him anything for power, for he is the only way to power for women in this world. I shouldn"t have been afraid of Ellen, I should have learnt. Oh, if I only had magic, I"d make them feel it."
Caryl Churchill, "Vinegar Tom"
"It might be the greatest thing ever invented, but if it"s invented, then it"s not worth dying for."
Taj Bachmann, former missionary
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obamateur
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(Date Posted:12/19/2006 00:06:47)
Reply to : Shadowself
The white suburban church I used to attend wasn't overtly racist, but many of the people did hold racist views, though they never would have admitted it. This used to irritate me to no end, as I felt that since our city was 20-25% black and our congregation was the only one of my denomination there, it should represent the population of the area. In the 14 years I attended, we only had one black family that were regular attenders for a few years until they moved. I suppose, at least in America, the church reflects the culture it's part of, and I don't think that white America as a whole has come to terms yet with it's past and present attitudes towards race.
Thanx, Shadowself.
But let's say that I am racist and I want to change my racism: what do i change? My color or race? The color of the race I hate? My attitude? See what I am getting at?
with Love and Respect,obamateur
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obamateur
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(Date Posted:12/19/2006 00:11:19)
Reply to : Freedom from Chains
Reply to : ShadowselfI don't think that white America as a whole has come to terms yet with it's past and present attitudes towards race.And it will still be sometime before it does. Keep in mind that when talking about societal change, 50 years is a very short period of time. It has already been 50 years since the civil rights act. And it took a hundred years before that until our society got to the point where it was even willing to think in terms of civil rights. And it's not just our society that is like that. I have read much of Roman history where from the beginning of a change in social attitudes and implementation of them could well be a period of time any where from 100 - 30
Thanx, ffc. But does it take so long just because of the sloth of societal change, or is it because what we are trying to change is not what the problem is?
Example:
Suppose I stop hating you as black, but continue to hate you as a fool. Is there any difference betweena black fool and a foolish black? Wd not the continuation of hatred for blacks as any other words prolong and delay and obliterate any real change?
in Love of myself as black and fool and all other words,
obamateur
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obamateur
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(Date Posted:12/19/2006 00:26:16)
Reply to : Dark Horse69
Does this remind you of the cult you were part of?Christian Party Father's Manifestothanks to Shadowself for posting this here in the first place, but I thought setting up a link here is a good idea)
Thanx, DH59. Yes, it does. We also did not believe in interracial dating nor dancing nor marriage and etc.
But since my cult and this group were allowed and taught to hate oursleves as wrong, it was natural to hate those we were taught were wrong, and to hate what we thought of as wrong.
Do you think that teaching me to love myself as right and as wrong wd have helped me to see that the first wrong is to hate those who are wrong?
And that that hatred is what was really wrong with interracial marriage and with same-race marriage?
In other words, that it is just as bad to marry the same race in Hate of other races as it is to marry interracially in Hate of my own race?
Specifically, that what is really wrong with a black who intermarries or with a white who intermarries is the same hatred of the black for blacks and of the white for whites? And which hatred for any person or race is what also is wrong in same-race marriage?
Sorry to ask so many questions!smile
Let me ask you to ask me any questions you may have!smile
with Love and r,
obamateur
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Shadowself
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(Date Posted:12/19/2006 18:39:57)
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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obamateur
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(Date Posted:12/20/2006 01:55:28)
Reply to : Shadowself
Thanx, Shadowself.
I don't know all the answers to overcoming racism; I've heard it said that all of us harbor a bit of bias but don't recognize it. We just tend to see the extremes (KKK, Skinheads, etc.) and think "Whew, I'm not as bad as they are!" Some ways to loosen up one's preconceived notions is to actually get to know people from the group you have problems with.
But don't we also hate most the ones we know most?
I have found that those who say that they have to know you *in order to* love you, and who say that they have to know you *before* they love you, will hate you as something else *after* they get to know you.
So how will getting to know them help if I tend to hate who i know and who i don't know?
In Love of those I know and don't know, obamateur
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phoenixgirl
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(Date Posted:12/20/2006 19:07:08)
Obamateur,
I really don't get you. People have given you some pretty good advice and have taken the time to look up websites for you, and all you've done is try to apply their earnest responses to your attempt at reasoning: "If X and Y are opposites, and X leads to Y, and I am X and therefore am Y, and you are Y and therefore X, then therefore everything I say makes total sense and yet no sense at all. See? Smile." You ask if you should change your own race or figure there's no point to getting to know people of other races because you hate those you know and those you don't know. Obviously you can't change your race despite whatever Michael Jackson has tried to do, and if you just hate everybody then all your "Love and Respect, Smile!" emails don't make any sense. Maybe you are trying to be Socratic and ask us mind-blowing questions, but if the question is obviously ridiculous it falls flat. But I'm glad you at least tried to come up with a reason why you need our advice and have stopped giving unsolicited advice to our new members.
Racism is very real in the world, and even if you hadn't been taught it by your church, you would experience it in some way. My personal philosophy is that you just make the choice to ignore your preconceived notions (everyone judges everyone by appearance including but not limited to race) and to give each person a chance, and then you treat that person based on his or her inner goodness (or lack thereof). I'm a public school teacher and kids will sometimes accuse teachers of being racist when they want to show their teacher how he or she isn't respected, but I never get that, so I figure my philosopy is working.
One time it was really put to the test because we had a crazy neighbor who played on people's fears of being racist. She'd ask to be invited over for dinner or for wine or coffee or want any leftovers you had or a ride somewhere, and if you said no she'd point to her skin and say, "It's because of this, isn't it?" with sort of a naughty smile on her face. Most people kowtowed to her, but the Vietnam Vet and I are told her that we weren't going to accept her crap no matter what color she was. One time she asked me for a ride to a hospital 15 miles away where I knew she had debts due to the magic of the internet. She later claimed that she was having chest pains and I had cruelly refused to take her to the hospital . . . we live five blocks from a different hospital, but I am sure that her chest pains fell in that very fine line between being serious enough to go the hospital and not serious enough to go to the one right next door [rolls eye].
The climax was when she was breaking apart a giant wooden CD stand at 6 a.m. about two feet from our bedroom window, then illegally throwing the pieces off the balcony onto the street. The president of our association asked her to stop, and she gave this woe is me speech about how we were all prejudiced against her, and I called down, "Yes, that's right! We like it when other people wake us up at the crack of dawn! We just can't stand it when you do it because of your race!" Needless to say that didn't go over well with her, but since she'd stopped paying rent several months back her spineless landlord finally managed to get her to move out by raising the rates (he was such a wuss he couldn't evict her). She still calls our neighbor from time to time and asks to go out for brunch. And guess what . . . every time they went, she "forgot" her wallet or the only card she remembered to bring mysteriously got declined. It took a long time for the neighbor, who is a mature woman, widowed with grown children, to get over her fear of this woman's wrath and accusations and just say no.
But anyway, the point is, give all people a chance. Let them surprise you by being kinder and more interesting than you thought. And if it turns out they're really toxic people, then you've given them their chance and are free to move on.
I watch my newspaper students interacting, and it's very interesting. They are all truly friends with each other, but they make fun of each other's race all the time. "Of course, the Asians don't have their stories yet!" or "It's because I'm black, isn't it?" And they all laugh. At first I was worried that these jokes were insulting (the two editors kept good-humoredly bossing around a black boy, whom they eventually renamed after a famous slave -- yes, everyone in the class has a nickname but I thought that was taking it a bit too far), and I would always say something about being kind and not offending anyone, but for the most part the jokes seem to foster real intimacy. I remember last year somebody wanted to make a bunch of Christmas "ornaments" out of construction paper to decorate the room, but as the work went along people kept pointing out groups that were left out, so in the end we had a white santa and a black santa and a menorah mixed in among the Christmas trees. And then we all had a good laugh about our hodgepodge of ornaments.
You mentioned interracial marriage (by the way, I don't think interracial marriage has anything to do with hating your own race -- it just means that those people's identities aren't wrapped up in their race and therefore they can accept and appreciate each other fully). I remember a white female minister I knew married to a Korean. She'd say things like, "Honey, you're so tan! Oh wait, you're just Korean" and then laugh. What we've been taught about race or what we've concluded about race affects how we see the world, so I think sometimes just "getting it out there" can be refreshing and cause for a good laugh. I think my students have figured something out about how to make the world a better place. Maybe we'll never be completely color-blind, but we can become friends and create communities based on common interests, not race, and if we are truly friends with someone, maybe it's ok to make irreverent jokes instead of making those judgments internally and letting them fester.
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--Phoenixgirl
"I am influenced at the present time by far higher considerations and by a nobler idea of duty than I ever was when I held the Evangelical belief." George Eliot
"I have one great fear in my heart, that one day when they are turned to loving, they will find we are turned to hating." Alan Paton's Cry, the Beloved Country (I promise I read this before it was an Oprah book club book)
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that have members of that group. Go to the library and get some books on the history of the people you feel prejudice against, learn what they are like and where they are coming from. Find books on racism and prejudice, too. Do some web searches on the subject. Information can clear your head of any false teachings/beliefs you may hold if you are open to learning and thinking in new ways. Realize that all humans are just people, no matter what they look like. Checking out some info on psychology and sociology might be helpful, too, as they give insight into the workings of the mind and the power of groups when it come "Hatred of the Other". Having someone to hate or at least distinguish itself from (for whatever reason) is often how a group/tribe/nation/race/etc. holds itself together.