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smokinguitardude
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(Date Posted:10/15/2007 00:01:54)
So for 15 years, I've been a pastor in a mainline denomination. I'm a staff member and really enjoy my role as a "pastor of worship" in a church that has strong emphasis on grace. OK so what is "fundamentlist" about that? It is the staff members (specifically the Sr. Pastor and the Assistant Pastor) that direct, control and even manipulate what I do and even how I do it, based on their fundamentalist values and control mechanisms.
I kid you not, the measure of success in our ministry is based on attendance and offerings. It is completely whacked!
The good news here is that I love the people I'm shepherding. Because I'm in a mainline denomination that has about as many liberals as moderates and fundamentalists, I am not in danger of being put "on trial" for my views. But then again, I keep my anti-fundamentalist views to myself, mostly for the sake of the flock. Trust me, some things are not worth stirring up.
I'm not gay, but I am very compassionate about why gay people feel they have to remain in the closet and feel badly that t gay men and women are judged so harshly. There again, I have to remain in the closet about my views on that. Furthermore, I feel that fundamentalist and evangelical authorities are completely messed-up when it comes to human sexuality and feel that I can't do anything to lead the sheep in a safe, guiltless place of resolution on matters of human sexuality.
I love my wife dearly, who is and always has been a fundamentalist. She does not realize just how liberal I have become over the years, but does find my freedom (a few beers here and there) and my freedom from guilt refreshing and always looks for grace and finds it in our relationship. For her sake, I must continue to minister in a fundamentlist /evangelical environment, even though I could be in big trouble if a witch hunt ever started on me by my fellow staff members. Now that I'm in my 40's finding a new pastorate is complicated, so leaving my present position isn't the answer, but I'm strongly considering it.
I have, and always will have lots of compassion for people who struggle with matters of faith and sorting out personal spirituality matters from obligations and legalisms imposed on them by the sociological structures of religious authority in general and Christian Fundamentalism in particular.
I struggle with remain where I am (compatible with my wife and members, but imcompatible with my fellow staff members), but have nowhere (until Walk Away) to disclose my views honestly and openly. Thanks for listening. I hope to be able to listen and learn from y'all.
Ron
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redzed
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(Date Posted:10/15/2007 02:18:57)
Reply to : smokinguitardude
Hi sgdude, welcome to waff, sounds like with your experience and life circumstances you will be right at home here
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Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe" a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us."
Namaste
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:10/16/2007 02:25:11)
Reply to : smokinguitardude
Great you could join up! and share a bit about yourself. I really appreciate reading it.....
Its interesting to think about....that in the non religious organisation there are always staff / management problems - challenges to work with............but it seems that there is NO room for negotiation or any individual preferences or questioning or negotiations when it comes to religious authority or religious hierarchies. ?
.....I think its funny to refer to people as 'sheep'? .....but I would also say....its like being a religious 'mushroom'......living in a dark closet, full of bullshit..... and not being able to be yourself?
Enjoy WAFF....glad to see you here! Can't wait to talk about sex with you!  
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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smokinguitardude
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 09:32:30)
Thanks y'all -- good thots.
Sheep? Yeah - Jesus told the apostle John to take care of them. It is biblical imagery for people who are the object of God's affection, but it could sound patronizing if I'm not careful.
"Mushroom" is very apropos for my life in the closet, no doubt about that. I'm a wimp for keeping my mouth shut, I suppose, but alas, with a family to take care of, my only other option would be starving musician and that's not taking care of first things first.
No matter how good you are at songwriting, making music -- you always suck compared to the person ahead of you! Musicians - ever notice that?
I walk away from the office just appalled at the stuff I hear sometimes, but I survive. Today was better than most, but some wierd stuff happed when a Christian counselor tried to network with us and got raked over the coals in an atmosphere of sucpicion. Damn - I felt like we were in an inquisition!
Thanks for making me feel at home. Your authenticity is refreshing. Carthartic, even!
Stay classy!
--Ron
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stanthemanriley
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 21:30:43)
Ron
Well April29th of this year was significant because it was the last time I ever attended a chuch service. Now I am not going to say that it will be the last time ever, because I know myself well enough to know that I go through phases where I might go just for some special event, like ay Christmas Eve Mass, but After reading your posts I could relate to the fundy thinking at a mainline church.
I attended an Episcopal church, one of those with an unusually higher than average evangelical base as compared to most Episcopal churches. Like most churches, the congregation was very cliquish; they would go out of their way to make visitors & to some degree newer members, feel welcome, but since I quit going, now, here it is October, & oddly enough I have not recieved so much as even an Email saying that they miss me. (That's probably because like all other churches, they are happy not to have me there) ANYWAY The reason I quit going was because when I wnet to one of those "Social events" you know, the after church thing where everyone eats and talks and such? Well, I was sitting at a table alone, being ignored throughout the meal, which again, is the norm for me, so that was not offensive. What offended me is that someone, who introduced himself as some leader type person (not clergy though) Came over and proceeded to quiz me about what I believed and why I was in the Episcopal church etc Quickly, I realized that this guy was a Fundy, one of a minority in the move,ment who believes that in order for the movement to survive, there must be a stricter adoption to fundamentalist Christian standards. Now this guy seemed really out of place in an Epsicopal movement. For example, he was a creationist; he said that we should accept genesis as fact adn not question evolution. (I on the other hand am a staunch evolutuionist and can show anyone what scientific proof there is to support scientific theory over superstition. When I told him that I sought a more intellectual crowd with whom to worship, which was shy I had settled years ago in the Episcopal movement, he said "Well a lot of intellectuals think they are smarter than God" I had basically written off the guy as a nutcase then realized that he is married to a big name civic leader and that he is in fact some church board member.....
SO After that, Well, I never went back. Now true, he has the right to his beliefs and ideas, but I don't thinmk that the Episcopal church is the right place to force them on others. Perhaps he should try a Baptist church? OR Perhaps I should not care, as it is not any of my business anymore since I am not going there.
NOW Briefly, I have studied religion for years, both formally in college and on my own in my spare time. That is why I am so drawn to Deism. This guy was NOT The reason I quit going to this church, but he was perhaps the proverbial "Straw that broke the camel's back"
SO if you have compassion for these people in your congregation, which I do not doubt, then by being part of the solution you are making a very positive impact in their lives. If you speak out against the fundy's, well, they will turn it into a major conflict and at best make martyrs of themselves. That is what fundy's do; their religion is based on hatred and opposition. It sounds more like you are at least coming from an idea of love rather than fo hate, and you have enough insight to see that more harm comes from forcing and manipulating the flock rather than from leading by example. IF you are leading by a good example, then you are doing way more than the S Pastor who wants to use fear and control to manipulate his followers. Religious legalism may bring in statistics and money, but deep down inside, those follwers lack peace, love, and happiness and are inwardly questioning everything around them, rather than moving forward with an example that radiates love.
Thanks for reading
Stan
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smokinguitardude
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 23:24:49)
Stan
Yours is an unusual story, because you don't expect to find fundys in mainline churches where likely your pastoral - priestly leadership is more than likely liberal (but not always), and your conclusion is certainly understandable. If the eucharist and anglican experience is important to you, there are likely places where you'd fit in just fine, but that's your call.
Thanks for encouraging me about my role in a mainline church driven by fundamentalist leadership. I do like to come along side folks and just listen to their pain or when good stuff happens, and set aside theological agendas.
I think I can pull that off without getting polemical toward my collegeagues. My exerience is that there are great people in churches, many of whom are fundamentalists who have been misled and are following along the best they can. Others are agressive and beligerent and need some guidance of a different kind.
I certain that if someone like you came along, I'd be glad to have you around!
Thanks again for the input.
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Shadowself
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(Date Posted:10/25/2007 03:41:15)
Reply to : smokinguitardude
So for 15 years, I've been a pastor in a mainline denomination.
Welcome to Walk Away, smokinguitardude. You sound like you are between a rock and a hard place. I would just say that if you plan on staying in the ministry you need to find a more liberal church environment than the one you are in now, but I see that you have to be careful because of your fundy wife. How strongly fundamentalist is she? You say she finds your freedom refreshing. Might she actually be more willing to change than you think, but maybe is held back by fears and other little tricks taught by the fundamentalists? If you did accept a postition at another church that lacked the fundy/evangelical wing, would it bother her that much? Especially if she did not feel pressured to change, and could still personally hold onto any beliefs she wished?
Also--have you sought any assistance from your denominational headquarters? You didn't mention your specific faith, or how ministers are selected. Are you appointed by a bishop or other director, or are you hired independently by the congregation? In other words, when it gets to the bottom line, who do you answer to? If it's your local church, the fundies will have more sway over your future if you try to be more liberal than they like and will force you out before you are ready. Is your denomination more liberal at the higher leadership levels? If so, you might get good help and advise from them. If not, it will make your decision more difficult.
I hope all of my questions don't feel like the Third Degree!  I'm sure you've gone over and over some of them yourself. While you do want to think of your wife's needs and the people you serve in your church, you also need to seriously examine your own needs and emotions. If you remain in your present situation, can you stay mentally healthy and balanced, or will you feel conflicted and strained? If the latter will be true, you are looking at an unhappy future. Whatever decision you make, you have to be able to live with, so choose wisely.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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smokinguitardude
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(Date Posted:10/25/2007 09:49:10)
Reply to : Shadowself
Reply to : smokinguitardudeSo for 15 years, I've been a pastor in a mainline denomination.Welcome to Walk Away, smokinguitardude. You sound like you are between a rock and a hard place. I would just say that if you plan on staying in the ministryyou need to find amore liberal church environment than the one you are in now, but I see that you have to be careful because of your fundy wife. How strongly fundamentalist is she? You say she finds your freedom refreshing. Might she actually be more willing to change than you think, but maybe is held back by fears and other little tricks taught by the fundamentalists? If you did accept a postition at another church that lacked the fundy/evangelical wing, would it bother her that
A position at another church within my denomination would be more appropritate in terms of my theological stance, but very boring in terms of my artistic contributions. Unless the congregation is a African American, liberal congregations as a general rule are opposed to praise and worship music (Marva Dawn - dumbing down) on the level that I'm enjoying it. I can accept a role as a solo pastor where dynamic music is not the feature, but I'd lose the thing that I really bring to the table. Not a bad preacher, but live to experience the musical aspect of worship.
My wife is open to certain cultural freedoms (in terms of mores and folkways) but not theologically open to some of the issues that I'm considering.
I wll get an evaluation soon, and will see if I'm a "fit" among the staff after a decent stint here. I really like the denomination I'm in and love the people in my congregation, but wow -- very different than my fellow staffers in terms of values, meaning, purpose, ethics.
I may have to choose between my passion (music, radical alternative, blues, jazz) and boring church music in liberal churches where I'm a choir member at best. Or, maybe I get out of it all together and start playing in bars! My wife would love that!!!!
Good food for thought in choosing -- I'll update the latest, soon.
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teandoranges
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