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Shadowself
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1# |
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(Date Posted:07/13/2007 07:14:55)
Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you found us. We often have discussions on religion and spiritual topics; members range from liberal Christians to atheists, so you'll find a variety of opinions.
Why did your friend's wife ask you not to visit him? I would want friends to visit me even if an illness left me unable to communicate. The simple fact of knowing someone is there, still caring enough about me to visit and share the outside world with me would be a positive and uplifting experience. Was the wife afraid your comments would be stressful and draining for him?
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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redzed
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2# |
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(Date Posted:07/13/2007 15:55:05)
Reply to : hrbiker
My greatest struggle is loneliness. I don't personally know anyone else who has been down this same road. I've lost all faith in God, but for some reason, I still pause a little inside when I say I no longer believe in God. I guess I'm more of an agnostic now.
As I was leaving fundamentalism, I had one very close friend, a pastor, with whom I could be honest. He helped me sound out my initial struggles without having to convince me to keep the faith. He had a stroke several years ago and can no longer communicate. His wife asked me to not see him any longer. So what I miss is that person with whom I can talk about spiritual things without having to fend off their agenda. If you're interested in dialog, let me know.
It's tough when one moves on from the social life of the church, I can empathise with you there. I began to read the bible from 8 yrs old and was in line to become a seventh day adventist minister when I lost my faith(and all my church friends and being so seperated from the 'world' that meant most all of them), but like you, there's that "pause".... over the forty years since, I have come to realise that change is the only constant. Welcome here , I'd be glad to "dialog" what's your interest?
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Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe" a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us."
Namaste
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hrbiker
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3# |
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(Date Posted:07/14/2007 05:50:59)
Reply to : Shadowself
Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you found us. We often have discussions on religion and spiritual topics; members range from liberal Christians to atheists, so you'll find a variety of opinions.Why did your friend's wife ask you not to visit him?I would want friends to visit me even if an illness leftme unable to communicate. The simple fact of knowingsomeone isthere,still caring enough about me to visit and share the outside world with me would be a positive and uplifting experience. Was the wife afraid yourcomments would be stressful and draining for him?
Thanks for the welcome. I never really asked her. He just had is stroke and was in the hospital. I was really messed up. Maybe I should have given her some time and tried visiting again. I've run into them a couple of times and run into him with a group of men who visit him and take him out occasionally. At least I know he's begin well taken care of. So where to do fall in the range of liberal Christian to atheist?
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hrbiker
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4# |
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(Date Posted:07/14/2007 06:04:10)
Reply to : redzed
Reply to : hrbikerMy greatest struggle is loneliness. I don't personally know anyone else who has been down this same road. I've lost all faith in God, but for some reason, I still pause a little inside when I say I no longer believe in God. I guess I'm more of an agnostic now.As I was leaving fundamentalism, I had one very close friend, a pastor, with whom I could be honest. He helped me sound out my initial struggles without having to convince me to keep the faith. He had a stroke several years ago and can no longer communicate. His wife asked me to not see him any longer. So what I miss is that person with whom I can talk about spiritual things without having to fend off their agenda. If you're interested in dialog, let me know.It's tough when one moves on f
Here's the dilemma that keeps rolling over in my mind. When I read the OT now, I see a very vindictive, god. One I have no interest in following or knowing in any way shape or form. I can get some good stuff from the NT, but Jesus claims to be the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob - the OT god. I'm not sure there's any redeeming value in the bible at all if the best part of the bible is still linked to the OT. But I still have at least an emotional reaction to disregarding everything. In the past moral decisions were so easy - what did the bible say, what would jesus do..., now, I'm having a hard time know what is right and wrong - especially when it comes to close relationships, like with my children. Any thoughts?
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Toad_2646
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5# |
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(Date Posted:07/15/2007 10:33:59)
"In the past moral decisions were so easy - what did the bible say, what would jesus do..., now, I'm having a hard time know what is right and wrong"
I understand that feeling. I felt the same way immediately after I left (I'll post my conversion story in the next few days), but I soon realized that I could make those decisions for myself. Ask yourself, "What do I feel is right or wrong, deep down?" I believe we are all capable of deciding right and wrong on our own, not necessarily without the consultation or advice of other people, but without relying on some non-human spiritual force. I'm speaking of more personal issues, such as drinking, music, etc. that I believe your also referring to. I've learned to discern right from wrong by first examining how it affects me on a physical and emotional level, and how it affects those around me. That was the first hurdle I encountered, and overcoming that made the rest a little easier.
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snakechic
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6# |
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(Date Posted:07/15/2007 10:44:40)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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7# |
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(Date Posted:07/15/2007 10:49:40)
Reply to : Toad_2646
I believe we are all capable of deciding right and wrong on our own, not necessarily without the consultation or advice of other people
Couldn't agree with that more! its one of the 'secrets' the christian authority figures don't want you to know.
welcome ....i'll look forward to your story...
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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redzed
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8# |
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 05:45:37)
Reply to : hrbiker
Any thoughts?
One of the defining factors in my abandonment of the sda faith was the expulsion of it's leading theologian in Australia, Dr. Desmond Ford. Ford was one of the best speakers and he explained things simply and logically; he was cast out because he disagreed with other leading sda theologians. That incident taught me that if it's possible for those with doctorates in theology to disagree as to fundamental doctrines then how was it possible for the laity?
In OTW if one looks to external authority for the answers, how could one ever be sure? What are the alternatives? Well many years of theology classes and learning of original languages did not seem to help our sda protagonists, so that's seems pointless! Where else to learn? If not from without, what of within? There's many books on the inner path, suffice to say it seems the only alternative? Is one's intuition the best guide? Does the seed of a tree need external instructions to grow?
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Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe" a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us."
Namaste
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hrbiker
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9# |
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07/12/2007
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(Date Posted:07/17/2007 07:16:41)
Reply to : redzed
Reply to : hrbikerAny thoughts?One of the defining factors in my abandonment of the sda faith was the expulsion of it's leading theologian in Australia, Dr. Desmond Ford. Ford was one of the best speakers and he explained things simply and logically; he was cast out because he disagreed with other leading sda theologians. That incident taught me that if it's possible for those with doctorates in theology to disagree as to fundamental doctrines then how was it possiblefor the laity?In OTW if one looks to external authority for the answers, how could one ever be sure? What are the alternatives? Well many years of theology classes and learning of original languages did not seem to help our sda protagonists, so that's seems pointless!
The inward journey is tricky for me. It very much is a learning process. Being the kind of person who always wants everyone's approval makes it even harder. I have had some success in the process though. I'm actually learning a lot about it from my workplace. It just becomes more difficult for me when I have tough decision to make about my children. they're grown and still very involved in the church. Two of them have asked that I not contact them any more. On this one, I'm really torn. Initially, my strategy was to just e-mail them occasionally to let them know I'm still here and open to starting the relationship again. It's been 9 months and I haven't heard anything from them. Now I'm feeling like a begger with hand out hoping to get a crumb from the table. It's getting humiliating. Do I keep it up, hoping it will get through one day or do I just stop and hope they come around on their own someday? Some days I lean one direction and some the other. Maybe I just need to give it some more time. Have you had to deal with something like this?
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