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snakechic
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Reply To MissUnknown
(Date Posted:03/12/2008 17:49:47)
It really scares me. I know that scripture says in Hebrews I think, that if you leave the faith there is no more sacrifice for your sins and you are damned to hell.
I must say though, when I think for a moment that it is very possible that Christ is not real, I get a relief. I think that finally I can live a normal life..... if you don't do all of these works you won't make it. ....When I read that my heart sunk and my life went into a tail spin. I feel sometimes that as a Christian (which I may or may not be) that you can't enjoy your life because you constantly have to think of Christ and do all works as if your doing them for him and your constantly thinking of having to evangelize someone and if you don't you have the fear that if something happened to them that their blood is on your hands. ............even if I'm doing my best it's probably not good enough, then you live in constant fear of God and can't enjoy your life, your spouse, your children. Maybe it seems crazy to some people reading this but I took my faith very seriously and it literally almost drove me crazy sometimes with fear.
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Hi... Sounds like you're busy with your questioning - that's great. What 'evidence' do you have exactly? except your own fears and the relief at leaving it all behind.? No...I don't think you are crazy at all. .. only a few things I want to say about your thoughtful post is that I'm very glad you wrote it and secondly...when you say the 'otherside' of christianity I don't quite see it that way. To me..its the same pitiful state of being dependent on a crutch that also gives you immense 'fear', pressure and instability. You can still find 'hope' in all kinds of ways. People do all the time. But no one can guarantee your life will be without some physical pain. There is no 'magical' full proof method for that. That's life. So ...in the middle between a rock and a hard place...between the carrot and the stick. Its a very common dilemma - not just for the religious. Nah..it doesn't feel very good but I don't think its supposed to. Its a time of flux and change.
(Message edited by snakechic on 03/12/2008 17:58:30)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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RE:I'm new here
(Date Posted:03/18/2008 17:05:54)
Reply to MissUnknown (03/12/2008 2:39 PM).
I'm basically on the fence because of experiences that I have had tell me, that Christ could very well be real, yet the more I read the more I realize that he very well could have just been some type of embellishment to some story that people made up long ago.
It really scares me. I know that scripture says in Hebrews I think, that if you leave the faith there is no more sacrifice for your sins and you are damned to hell. So obviously I'm taking it slow in my transition.
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I don't have any affinity with the bible or want to create one! but I think its likely that theologians etc. from different sides of the fence - different denominations would have a hard time coming to any agreement on the 'hell' doctrine. Its against my own principles but this maybe worth a look http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html ? I hear a lot of 'liberal' christians refer to the 'hell doctrine' as concocted and medieval but I don't believe that is the point. The point is that it IS used by chrisitanity to frighten people into joining their ranks, their particular church ( its more complex - some christians seem to depend on it no matter what kind of church they attend or don't attend) And imo the 'liberals' are passing the buck and trying as hard as they like to distance themselves from the 'bad' shit in the bible. That old New vs. Old testament stuff. ? whatever.. ? (note:- definition of 'liberal' is subjective and depends on experiences, culture etc) anyway.....
(Message edited by snakechic on 03/18/2008 18:06:14)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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RE:I'm new here
(Date Posted:03/18/2008 17:46:09)
anyway....
Who is going to "hell'?
People who don't fuck up their lives enough to 'find' jesus?
I liked this quote...by Chris walker.
"Listen, I have nothing but empathy for a person who is recovering from any form of substance abuse. It is a problem that impacts not only the person suffering from the addiction, but also the family members around them. I just find it a bit amusing however when people "find Jesus" after that ordeal and become so self-righteous that they believe that those of us who havent "been "born again" are wrong and going to hell. I guess those of us who don"t fuck up our lives enough to have to "find Jesus" are going to be at a disadvantage in the afterlife. "
Or people who don't go to the 'right' church ?
again to save time I'll quote (cut & paste)
People who don't worship the Old Testament God they are hell bound. ?
Neanderthals and Early Hominids ? There is some evidence that they may have believed in an afterlife but since they don?t even get a mention on the bible I think it is safe to assume we will see them in hell.
Sumerians- The oldest civilization. They worshipped gods such as An and Nammu, but no Yahweh. Welcome to hell Sargon.
Ancient Egyptians- Osiris, Isis, and Ra pretty much break the Thou Shalt Not Have Any Gods Before Me commandment (check your local courthouse if you live in a red state) and if that doesn?t do it the incestuous marriages would seal the deal. Straight to Hell.
Zoroastrianism- One of the earliest known monotheistic religions. Close but no cigar. Straight to hell spoke Zarathustra.
Greeks- Raping, plundering, murdering, and drinking to excess. And I am talking about their gods! Looks like they are headed to deep in the bowels of Hades!
Romans- Tricky. I guess it depends on which ones agreed with Pontius Pilate.
Buddhists- Buddha once said that life is suffering. This practice will come in handy while burning in hell.
Hindus- Holy cows but no holy spirit. Straight to hell! Now that the Buddhists and Hindus are in hell, we easily outnumber the people in heaven several times over. Do you think we aren?t going to invade?
Aztecs, Mayans, Arawaks, Native Americans, South Pacific Islanders, etc ? Some of these people practiced cannibalism like Jeffrey Dahmer but didn?t accept Jesus so we know where they are going. Christians killed a lot of them because they didn?t believe in Jesus so god seems to be fucking them over twice.
Jews- Christians would say that the Jews were on the right path until they kind of killed the Messiah. Oy.
Jews for Jesus- Isn?t this a contradiction. I vote they go to hell for hedging their bets.
We can keep adding and adding to that list.
Anyone who doesn't agree ..or says anything against you?
I don't buy it one bit!
Hope this is adding to your stash of research -
"I continue searching for the truth or atleast what seems sufficient to me to believe whatever the evidence points to"
(Message edited by snakechic on 03/18/2008 17:48:41)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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lsl_mss
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RE:I'm new here
(Date Posted:04/04/2008 14:11:47)
You said....
"If you got sick and have enough faith then their is hope that you will recover. "
Welcome to the forum! I just want to point out that that type of thinking is a pretty useful tool the to the fundies, yet contradicts that "God has a plan" theory. IMHO, prayer in general conflicts with the "God has a plan" thing that they preach at you. If he has this "plan" why am I bothering to try and change it? It is what it is....
If they can convince you that if something doesn't go the way you want it that you weren't being a good enough Christian, didn't have enough faithe, etc., then they can hope you will continue to patronize their church in pursuit of being a "better Christian".
Seriously - if you are sick and lying in the hospital ...
and you recover -
a. everyone cheers and praises God and all the prayers you got that CLEARLY were the reason you got well.
b. it was God's will that you recover - then why did we all bother praying??
...you die,
a. we didn't have enough faith while we were praying
b. that was God's will and all the prayers in the world wouldn't matter.
Really - they have an answer for you either way - whatever suits the situation - you know?
I think also that they paint the picture that we are inherently separate from God. You need to go to church to "find GOd" or Jesus or whoever.
I personally prefer the idea that I am connected to the creative energy of the universe simply through the fact that I exist. I don't have to do anything special to be part of it - I just am. That quantum physics thing - we are all energy, etc. That makes more sense to me than a personified magical God that has thoughts and feelings like I do.
What happens in my life happens because of the choices I make - the things I choose to focus my attention on and what I put out into the universe. If I treat people like shit, it's going to come back and bite me in the ass. If I'm kind to people, then for the most part that's what I will get in return as long as I have chosen the right people to be around.
Like I said in another post, I think religion just tries to complicate something that should really be quite simple and natural.
Good luck on your journey.
It's OK to change your mind about things.
LM
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Courage is the price life exacts for granting peace.
~Amelia Earhart
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freebird75
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RE:I'm new here
(Date Posted:04/30/2008 00:14:32)
Welcome MissUnknown! Snakechic pointed me to your post. I would definitely like to discuss this transition with you. I had the same dilemmas too when I was deciding whether I believed Jesus really existed or not. The evidence prevailed that he didn't, so I didn't see any point in believing in him any more. It was hard, though, as you say that Christ will always love you unconditionally and never leave you and all that... However, for me the crucial thing was that it just isn't real. Who's to say that I'm not just imagining it all? Maybe there is no such thing as unconditional love. Would that be a problem? I find it that everything I need is within myself, I just need to discover it. Being your own master is the hardest but also the most gratifying thing in the world. At least that's what I think. Everyone is different. I have come to believe that religion and faith is an intimate thing and everyone just has to figure out what works for him/her.
I was also aware of "being damned to hell" if we believe and then turn away from the Lord. Actually, if I remember correctly (it's been a while since I've read the Bible), if I believed and then renounced Jesus, I'm much worse off than the ones who never believed. I find this funny now, but of course it was a bit scary at first. However, I was willing to take a risk. I'd rather go to hell with Bertrand Russell than go to heaven to sing God's praises for all eternity. That would be hell for me. I think hell is more figuratively meant. Who knows, really. There isn't any evidence for either way so I see no point thinking about it now. Life is too short as it is.
I'd love to answer any questions you may have. I walked away almost 10 years ago, so it's been a while, and I went through a lot. Never looked back or wished I didn't walk away.
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"Uncertainty, in the presence of vivid hopes and fears, is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales." Bertrand Russel
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Chirpy
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Reply To snakechic
(Date Posted:04/30/2008 11:27:04)
Reply to snakechic (03/18/2008 3:46 PM)
anyway....
Who is going to "hell'?
People who don't fuck up their lives enough to 'find' jesus?
I liked this quote...by Chris walker.
"Listen, I have nothing but empathy for a person who is recovering from any form of substance abuse. It is a problem that impacts not only the person suffering from the addiction, but also the family members around them. I just find it a bit amusing however when people "find Jesus" after that ordeal and become so self-righteous that they believe that those of us who havent "been "born again" are wrong and going to hell. I guess those of us who don"t fuck up our lives enough to have to "find Jesus" are going to be at a disadvantage in the afterlife. "
Or people who don't go to the 'right' church ?
Alcoholics Anonymous takes this attitude as well. The ones who have done the twelve steps and have "recovered" from alcoholic abuse take this hight and mighty attitude that they are not only better than alcoholics but those who don't have a problem and never have had a problem with addiction and have therefore had no need to do the twelve steps so therefore have not been brainwashed by the AA dogma. Whenever I'm tempted to go back to church when things aren't going right and I feel I need God's help then I tell myself that many evangelical churches these days are full of those types of people and besides as soon as I walk through the church doors they're going to attach themselves to me.
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Guest
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RE:I'm new here
(Date Posted:04/30/2008 15:50:06)
Hi Miss Unknown,
The way you're feeling sounds alot like what I went through. I was really afraid to allow myself to stop believing, but I couldn't keep avoiding my doubts either. It was so hard. I took awhile to detach myself, and throughout the early part of the process, I barely even admitted to myself that I was doing it. If I thought about it too hard, I knew i'd freak out. It was like I took a couple small, quiet ,nonchalant steps towards the exit every day in hopes that god wouldn't notice me leaving.
During that period, it helped to me to remember that if a god did indeed exist, then he knew about my doubts and that if I continued pretending I was a convinced believer, it would be dishonest and pointless. Like you, I was relieved to consider the possibility that what I'd been taught was wrong. I knew I didn't really believe in fundamentalism anymore when I felt so relieved! If a relationship is healthy, happy, and rewarding, you don't feel that relieved at the prospect of leaving it. The mere fact that I allowed myself to being my feelings into the scenario, asking if I felt comfortable in my religion, was enough to tell me I was on my way out, because the religion discouraged feelings, self awareness, and self-respect.
It is difficult for many people (it sure was for me) to rebuild life without the church/religion. I felt alot like you did;worrying that I might not be protected by god any longer. But that fear was only a reflex based on things I'd been told over so many years. At my gut level, I knew the truth: that both good times and crap times happened to me before I was a fundamentalist Christian, happened while I was one, and would continue happening as long as I lived. In all honesty, religion made no real difference in actual outcomes. How you handle change and difficulty does matter, and I've still got a long ways to go before I can say I'm good at it, but don't we all.
Lastly, nobody says you have to abandon the concept of a god or spirituality or even Christianity if you don't want to.There may be spiritual paths that won't make you feel scared of uncomfortable. At least at this point you are asking questions and trying to break out of a system that kept you so constricted.
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snakechic
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RE:I'm new here
(Date Posted:04/30/2008 18:00:51)
I was reflecting on the whole thread and I wondered if 'writing' on this kind of forum might cause the person/questioner to feel as if they are committing some kind of mortal 'sin'? So from that perspective - it would feel horrible - risky......
....Ummm...you know ...the idea that's more or less preached from pulpit to the fundy dinner table that Questions in themselves are satanic? Know what I mean? Apart from what is taught within xian/fundy environments, I would guess there are a lot of personal superstitious or magical thinking being created by individuals - I remember that kind of thing from my old family/childhood.
Oh yeah .. I certainly can't say 'I'm good at it'..life is full of challenges and changes! Isn't it so right that 'we' learn better from our mistakes than our successes. (bugger! hehehe)
Yeah...I don't know very much about AA personally (only have secondhand info) ... it sounds very 'clubbie' / exclusive. Talk to someone who 'loves' it and its like talking to a fundie - they won't accept any kind of questioning/criticism..critiques.
I was chatting with my hub...he said he's noticed that one of the first questions he gets asked (by xians) is where do you live. Its like ...'are you local' and 'how far do you live from my church'....anyway...just chatting.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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