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The Collective
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91# |
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(Date Posted:05/05/2005 8:48 PM)
Reply to : snakechic
Stuck....sounds horrible but I think shadow is kinda right. It is a process but I think 'stuckness' is a place and a decision like any other. SOmetimes it the best place for someone to be. Often when 'moving' from one place (state) to another creates too much fear, havoc etc. and can lead to ditching the whole thing. (life even). I won't tell anyone they are 'stuck' meaning its a bad place. I suppose 'boring' yourself is a good sign its time to chuck it.
For me there are some experiences in life that will never be 'gotten over' - that's it! The best to hope for is to 'get past it' and not let it control your future too much.
I think the problem for a lot of people, and society in general, who haven't been through experiences that affect them so deeply is that they see 'getting over it' the same way they see any other illness...... go see a Dr, take a couple of asprin and you'll be fine in the morning. You're right, some wounds are too deep and will never totally heal, will never be 'gotten over', but you eventually learn to deal with it and move on. But 'getting stuck' is inevitable, its part of the process, tho some for longer than others. Its a process of having to unlearn a lifetime of bullshit, or even before that, sorting out what IS bullshit and what ISN'T. You have to learn where the wounds are, what caused them, a journey of self discovery that covers a lifetime of lies, manipulation, repression and abuse. Not an easy task, and it takes some longer than others depending on their circumstances. Of course thats just the beginning. After trying to unlearn a lifetime of crap, you also have to re-educate yourself, learn a lifetime's worth of knowledge to replace that you got rid of. Otherwise you leave holes where the previous crap leaks through and becomes a trigger, or worse. And it's not just learning facts, its learning knowledge and experiencing knowledge that needs to become personal to you, not just rote responses to everything you knew before. And lets face it, learning is something that never ends. There is always more to learn, and there always will be. It's a lifetime process. So, I see 'getting stuck' as just another part of the recovery process, but eventually, I hope, you learn enough to start coping, to start progressing past this point where you can finally start to actually 'get past it'. Sure, there are sometimes obstacles out of our control that block us from progressing, can even make us go backwards. That, I would consider 'getting stuck', and depending on the extent and duration, can possibly become dangerous. But most are temporary. As for getting angry and bitter and so on, great if you can get to that point (without it being destructive), This is a great place to vent those feelings, as most other places are inappropriate to do so. Perhaps this is also why the new member, gabes, felt uncomfortable here and left. He wrote: What I am reading in these pages is something different and new. I can't ever recall meeting ex-christians who bashed Christianity like I am reading here or the levels of outrage and contempt. What is going on? It's taken me over 7 years to get to the point where I can feel some anger and bitterness, as well as the fear and shame (instead of just fear and shame alone). And when things get repressed for so long, they can finally come out with explosive force. And support places such as this are a good place to do that, rather than letting the general public see our pain and our rage etc full force in their faces. I guess that brings us back to the point that all of us are at different stages of recovery, working at various rates of recovery, and like the above example with Gabes, some may not understand where others are at, or have moved past that and feel held back by others. The whole concept of a suport group/system/forum etc is not a simple thing. It has infinite variables and consequences that cannot all be foreseen and prepared for, and is bound to have unforeseen events and interractions occur. Strange actually, how long this thread has been sustained, or resurrected, if I dare use that term. Especially since I'm sure a lot of this has probably been said before and already repeated, perhaps several time in this thread alone. Strange how that happens. *shrug* So, I guess I better stop rambling before I start repeating stuff yet again *shrug* So, I guess I better stop rambling before I start repeating stuff yet again  Lahl
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gabes
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92# |
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(Date Posted:05/06/2005 7:08 AM)
Reply to : Lahl I guess that brings us back to the point that all of us are at different stages of recovery, working at various rates of recovery, and like the above example with Gabes, some may not understand where others are at, or have moved past that and feel held back by others. Hello all, I felt kinda bad about cutting and running, and was thinking of you Violet. I had a message typed out the other evening but then just cancelled it instead of posting. In my intro, I mentioned how I walked away from fundamentalism years ago, and while it may have sounded like an easy thing, everyone here knows that is never the case. Who was it, Jackson Browne, who said, "I can cry with the best, I can laugh with the rest" ? Gosh, there is a world of hurt out there, eh? The hurt, the cruelity, the abuse that I have seen as a direct result of fundamentalism? If I were to describe it, I'd compare it to train accidents: like a car stalled on the tracks; a deer transfixed by the headlight; the folks who fell off, folks who jumped off, folks who were pushed off a speeding locomotive with a schedule to keep. All the folks who desparately ran to catch it as it roared past. Am I close? There are a number of things about this forum that don't sit well for me and I would just as soon just walk away from. For the most part, I'd have to say it is the prevailing tone of negativity. The mockery also. I understand the function of this forum as a support group, and the importance of airing feelings instead of bottling them up, but as some are pointing out, there is something about it that is self-perpetuating. Also, I guess I'm a little puzzled whether this is a walk away from fundamentalism, or a walk away from Christianity forum. Personally, any gripes I have with fundamentalism is when it departs from the fundamental teachings of Christ, and when fundamentalists don't act very Christian-like to others (gosh, does this make me more fundamental than a fundamentalist?  ) ************** Look folks, this is your forum, and each one of us is free to choose what we want to believe-- or not to believe. I dunno, when I look at where I am and where I've been, I've still have far more questions than answers, but I'm more content with that now. :shrug *********** Proud and alone, cold as a stone I'm afraid to believe the things I feel I can cry with the best I can laugh with the rest But I'm never sure when it's real And it may be the hardest thing I've ever done But apart from all that I hope to find Where's the heart that's been looking for mine? I hope it finds me in time Love needs a heart and I need to find If love needs a heart like mine ***************
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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." --Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Voltaire
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93# |
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(Date Posted:05/06/2005 5:24 PM)
For the most part, I'd have to say it is the prevailing tone of negativity. The mockery also.
Pointing out all the multitudininous problems with fundamentalism is intrinsicly negative. So? If that's the way things are then that's the way things are. I think we're just calling things as we see it. If there's dog poop on the floor, then there's dog poop on the floor. As far as the mockery is concerned, I don't have problem with it. The things I used to believe are plainy absurd, ridiculuous, and silly. There are few places people can vent their true feelings about fundamentalism and Walk Away is one of them. When I was a believer I was always so very weary of pretending I liked and believed all that stuff. My true opinion was always suppressed. I've had my fill of faking belief.
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Zombies, Unicorns, Devils, Sea Monsters, Satyrs, Dragons, Six Winged Angels, Gods, Demons, Witches, Astrologers, A walking & talking snake, Magical fruit, Talking donkeys, human headed six-winged beasts, Ghosts. All that stuff is in the Bible and yet they tell me it"s not mythology?
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gabes
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94# |
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(Date Posted:05/06/2005 7:08 PM)
Reply to : Voltaire
If there's dog poop on the floor, then there's dog poop on the floor.
...so clean it up. Quit feeding the dog table scaps. Remember to let Rin Tin Tin out, or better yet, take him for a walk and get some sunshine and air yourself. Why would you keep stepping in it, or keep putting it to your nose to confirm just how bad it smells? Why on earth would you get down with the dog and roll in it? Dog poop is dog poop. Be glad you don't have a cow.
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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." --Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Voltaire
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95# |
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(Date Posted:05/06/2005 10:46 PM)
...so clean it up.
Oh PULEASE! Clean up Christianity? Why don't you do it yourself, and when you're finished let me know. I wish you luck. You seem to be utterly lack any historical sense at all. First the Eastern Orthodox church split off from the Catholic chuch way back when. Since then there have been many thousands of splits from the Catholic church, splits from splits, and on on and. At present there are around 14,000 different denominations with Christianity, with more coming all the time. Each and every one of these denominations came about because the people who split off thought the main church had something wrong with it's beliefs. In other words the splinter group thought it was "cleaning up the dog poop" of the main church.
Quit feeding the dog table scaps.
This is a rather rude insult. We're not feeding on the scraps. I think instead we're calling the scraps just what they are ("scraps") and refusing to eat them anymore. I don't believe a single shred of the beliefs I was taught. No more dog scraps going into my mouth.
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Zombies, Unicorns, Devils, Sea Monsters, Satyrs, Dragons, Six Winged Angels, Gods, Demons, Witches, Astrologers, A walking & talking snake, Magical fruit, Talking donkeys, human headed six-winged beasts, Ghosts. All that stuff is in the Bible and yet they tell me it"s not mythology?
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redzed
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96# |
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(Date Posted:05/06/2005 11:55 PM)
Reply to : Dok
To be able to let it in all the way again, and look christ in the eye so to speak and know for real that he is nothing... but a part of me. I just painted a jesus veneer over it in my heart. To feel that feeling I had when I communed with the holy spirit or whatever it was I was doing, when I blissed out on god, to feel that again, and let it be, let it go, because it was not god, it was ALL ME. And since this is about healing and being whole, that part of me that I called god & jesus, I took a great chance and embraced it. Embraced god and jesus once more...( I could have come out a preach boy again, it was a fear of mine)
As long as I hid from it, I was in denial, dissociating from a large part of myself. Christianity of the flavor we have partook teaches a dissociative method of thinking, to heal you need to stop running from jesus. Otherwise you will remain unhealed and not whole, because jesus is just a veneer to put over a good loving accepting part of your own self. A good many here know what dissociative psychology is. Myself a survivor of an abusive and unloving mean hearted family, was already quite well self schooled in it before the jesus freaks nabbed me and assimilated me. You are not running from Jesus, you are running from yourself.
Peace brother, it seems you have discovered the divinity within, could this be the same connection/realization that is spoken of by gurus, teachers and so-called saviours?
My experience was -- being raised from birth in a fundamentalist community in which there existed inexplicable conflicts and contradictions. As a child asking questions, one is trusting in that significant other, -- Santa Claus is real, so is the tooth fairy, until ..... one self-realizes, or asks the right questions, enough times.
It seems a long step from santa to god. To quote spong "education is not equal the world over and inevitably those, who do not know the larger picture, are crippled because they also do not know that they do not know." Thus it may take a life changing event, such as surviving a headlong plunge towards death, or a breakup of a relationship - the loss of a loved one. To most posters, Jesus is/was a loved one, more significant he is/was believed to be the very expression of love and as the disciples were said to weep at the foot of the cross .... do we too weep at the loss of our beloved Lord?
The grief cycle seems to be at the heart of the emotions expressed by you Dok, and others, the topic and posts thus far include "denial, anger, depression, bargaining, and acceptance" -- the classic cycle of grief described first by Elisabeth K. Ross. It seems that one may become stuck at a point in the grief cycle.
Becoming convinced that one's heartfelt beliefs are illogical, unnecessary, and self-defeating may trigger grief at the prospect of the loss of one's beloved saviour. This describes the true fundamentalist, as they passionately state their case, one sees the anxiety in their body language, their constant need for reinforcement, signs of a person in 'denial'.
Others become stuck at 'depressed', that is apparent; others at anger, Hi Ted ; others spend extraordinary effort on 'bargaining', arguing the case back and forwards, just maybe they can throw enough doubt upon the death of god to not have to decide, and thus the cycle begins again, back to denial, depression, anger ....
The fortunate move onto acceptance, they gain the strength to reinvest in life, begin to look for the positives and somehow it's all different, the flowers smell more aromatic, sunsets pluck the strings of emotions, children beam their light, the mythologies of childhood are seen in perspective, and the universe is tranquil, rewarding, and satisfying.
Dok there's seems to be more than a little 'bargaining' in your present life, you (consciously or not) have endured the grief of the loss of a beloved, and you are reticent about causing such grief in others. Perhaps that conflict has somewhat to do with your own grief? My own experience has been, as one cycles thru the stages of grief, alternately depressed, angry, accepting -- those states of mind, effecting one's energy, one's level of consciousness, one may be carried to a higher state, called 'enlightenment', self-realisation', 'krishna/christ consciousness', 'the mind of god', 'nirvana'. None of those terms describe a condition of permanency, they are acts of the moment, enlightenment is not a state, it is descriptive of insight.
"that part of me that I called god & jesus, I took a great chance and embraced it"
Sounds like self-realization, you have put into words what is a common experience amongst spiritually minded people, a level of thought wherein one is said to escape/transcend the level of consciousness described as 'samsara' -- being the "mind afflicted by delusion and karma" to a level of consciousness known as 'nirvana' -- having one's mind free from delusion and karma. 'Seeing' at that level of consciousness is also spoken of as krishna or christ consciousness, that level of thought at which one is absorbed in the universal consciousness, one sees that all of humanity is as one, we all suffer, we all seek pleasure and relief from pain.
On the other hand it could be that by choosing the positives from your experience you have clicked your amygdala forward, the power is pumping thru your pineal gland producing loads of serotonin, your frontal lobes are popping and you are speaking of things beyond the imaginations of those stuck back in that restrictive reptilean brain or overpowered by the emotions generated in the mammalian brain. Funny, I remember feeling embarrassed to have people discover I went to church on saturday, and now, every now and then, I feel embarrassed to think those people I used to commune with would see me loading a carton of beer into the boot. Then I taste .... aaah    , and feel compassion for those stuck in denial, anger, depression. I feel compassion for myself, and thru that feel compassion for the billions of other 'selfs' living with grief.
Is it possible to move on to acceptance and not look back?
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Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe" a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us."
Namaste
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gabes
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97# |
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(Date Posted:05/07/2005 2:12 AM)
Reply to : Voltaire
This is a rather rude insult. We're not feeding on the scraps. I think instead we're calling the scraps just what they are ("scraps") and refusing to eat them anymore. I don't believe a single shred of the beliefs I was taught. No more dog scraps going into my mouth.
Voltaire, that was not an insult directed at you. In carrying your "dog poop" analogy through, if fundamentalism has left dog crap on the floor, maybe part of the problem is that it has been eating table scraps?
Eating table scraps? When a preacher gets all fired up---sweating and spitting and pounding on his bible, threatening folks with eternal damnation--just how is his message anywhere close to say, Christ's sermon on the mount for example, in style, in tone, in spirit or in content? A diet of table scaps and the result stinks to high heaven. :shrug
Oh PULEASE! Clean up Christianity? Why don't you do it yourself, and when you're finished let me know. I wish you luck. You seem to be utterly lack any historical sense at all. First the Eastern Orthodox church split off from the Catholic chuch way back when. Since then there have been many thousands of splits from the Catholic church, splits from splits, and on on and. At present there are around 14,000 different denominations with Christianity, with more coming all the time.Each and every one of these denominations came about because the people who split off thought the main church had something wrong with it's beliefs.In other words the splinter group thought it was "cleaning up the dog poop" of the main church.
Voltaire, I guess it comes down to I don't really think Christianity was intended to be a religion, but rather a personal thing. When you start getting into denominations and all, then you're into all dogma and politics and set of beliefs you find in any organisation, whether it is a nation, a church, a university, or a social club.
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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." --Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Shadowself
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98# |
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01/16/2004
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(Date Posted:05/07/2005 5:44 AM)
I have just finished rereading this entire thread. Dok, Katseye, Cyrano, Zara, and others had some pretty deep stuff in their comments. Pages 1 and 3 are especially helpful. Victimhood, responsibility, choices we make, stages of growth...topics that are still useful to those of us who have stumbled across this forum after the pioneers have hashed them to smithereens. I don't know if I have anything to add or if anyone can introduce a new spin on the subject; but the simple fact that it has been resurrected shows that the need to discuss "getting over fundyism" is a constant draw. I know for some of the forum founders this may be old hat; an eye-rolling, shoulder-shrugging reaction of "this again" welling up within them. I, too, wish to move along in my adult development, and I recognize that reviewing my past fundyism (what was my fault, what wasn't, who did what to me, stupid beliefs I fell for, etc.) may inhibit my growth. Thus, I've been evaluating how much I post, what I post about, and whether I need to make a current post or not. I don't plan on leaving, but I do see the need for me to explore other routes and possibilities; replacing the unhealthy past with a new, healthy present to prepare me for my future. So I only want to point out that: We are all at different stages in our walk-away life; it's a process, not an event; we all move at different rates through these stages, some quickly, others slowly; some things will need to be repeated as newbies join our ranks; these are facts/issues about the human condition, not just fundamentalism. All gleaned, I believe, from the many posts within this thread.
Change is inevitable; the forum of 2003 is not the forum of 2005 and will not be the forum of 2007. But I don't want to put off newer members who bring up a question or problem that has been dealt with before. I think most people would like a personal, warm response to their pain and hurt, not "we've already discussed that; here's the link" type of answer. Maybe the forum is like school...every year starts with a repeat of the previous year to make sure we understand and remember our lessons. I found it useful to again read through all the posts from before I joined and see that much info was given that relates to my own experience. Maybe I'll read them yet again, and draw on them to continue on my own trail toward freedom. Git along, little doggie.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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Shadowself
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99# |
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(Date Posted:05/07/2005 6:15 AM)
Reply to : Voltaire
First the Eastern Orthodox church split off from the Catholic chuch way back when. Since then there have been many thousands of splits from the Catholic church, splits from splits, and on on and. At present there are around 14,000 different denominations with Christianity, with more coming all the time.Each and every one of these denominations came about because the people who split off thought the main church had something wrong with it's beliefs.In other words the splinter group thought it was "cleaning up the dog poop" of the main church.
Actually, it goes back farther than that. Almost all of present day christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) is descended from Pauline christianity, based on the teachings of the Apostle Paul. From what I've read (I admit I'm no expert) there was also Gnostic christianty and Jewish christianity. Maybe there were others too, but these seem to be the Big Three branches that sprouted from whatever roots took hold in the early years right after the death of Jesus. Who knows which came first? The reason Pauline christianity took over was because Constantine pretty much told the church to settle their arguments concerning belief and doctrine. Pauline christianity won by a bare vote and thus, with support from the Roman empire, systematically crushed any alternative types of christianity (maybe they thought of it as cleaning up dog poop?). The Bible and the creeds were developed after the take over, thus most christians today only are aware of the christianity of Paul, and probably are not aware that it was a splinter group off of whatever were the original christian teachings. I'm beginning to wonder if there is such a thing as original christianity, but that would hijack this thread so I won't go there.
Reply to : Gabes
Voltaire, I guess it comes down to I don't really think Christianity was intended to be a religion, but rather a personal thing.
I remember believing this. "It's not a religion, it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ". Only after I left did I examine this and realize that, if Jesus was my personal Savior, how could he be your personal savior too? If something is personal, it's mine and only mine, not everyones.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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