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Guest
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:01/28/2009 06:13:54)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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Supertzar
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2#
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Rank:none
Score:466
Posts:466
From: USA 
Registered:08/01/2005
Time spent: 14799 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:01/28/2009 19:17:32)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12, NIV
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. --Hebrews 10:35-36, NIV.
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Guest
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:02/02/2009 09:11:44)
Mostly Monstrous -
Glad to find I'm not the only one out there. I'm sorry you're going through it too. Hang in there, my friend.
I find my inability to trust makes me distance myself from any spiritual groups or practices - it just saps my enthusiasm. Also, living in small-town central Florida, there are darn few opportunities to connect with ANY spiritual groups other than Christians. Sorry to be so whiny about it all. This whole thing seems to be cyclic with me, so I'll be feeling fine again soon, at least for a while. Supertzar -
I've rewritten my rather sarcastic first reply to you. I know you mean well & I don't want to respond to your comments with negativity. But, honestly, YOU know that we can't just WILL ourselves to believe something simply because we'd like to believe it. Apparently you, yourself, didn't come to your newfound faith until Jesus and Satan appeared directly to you in a vision, so you know that for skeptics it takes some pretty convincing direct experience to compel belief. I see from some of your other posts that you've swung to both ends of the pendulum - fundamentalism, atheism, now back to christianity again, so I expect you can relate somewhat to my experience & can imagine how your posts will be received by someone who doesn't believe. It's sort of like throwing a starving dog a rubber bone. Until Jesus shows up in MY living room I just can't get anything out of your faith or enthusiasm. Sorry.
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Supertzar
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4#
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Rank:none
Score:466
Posts:466
From: USA
Registered:08/01/2005
Time spent: 14799 hours
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:02/03/2009 16:32:40)
Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest (02/02/2009 09:11:44)
Mostly Monstrous -
Glad to find I'm not the only one out there. I'm sorry you're going through it too. Hang in there, my friend.
I find my inability to trust makes me distance myself from any spiritual groups or practices - it just saps my enthusiasm. Also, living in small-town central Florida, there are darn few opportunities to connect with ANY spiritual groups other than Christians. Sorry to be so whiny about it all. This whole thing seems to be cyclic with me, so I'll be feeling fine again soon, at least for a while.
Supertzar -
I've rewritten my rather sarcastic first reply to you. I know you mean well & I don't want to respond to your comments with negativity. But, honestly, YOU know that we can't just WILL ourselves to believe something simply because we'd like to believe it. Apparently you, yourself, didn't come to your newfound faith until Jesus and Satan appeared directly to you in a vision, so you know that for skeptics it takes some pretty convincing direct experience to compel belief. I see from some of your other posts that you've swung to both ends of the pendulum - fundamentalism, atheism, now back to christianity again, so I expect you can relate somewhat to my experience & can imagine how your posts will be received by someone who doesn't believe. It's sort of like throwing a starving dog a rubber bone. Until Jesus shows up in MY living room I just can't get anything out of your faith or enthusiasm. Sorry.
Hello, Guest, and welcome to the forum! 
You WILL receive what YOU believe!  It's God's good purpose to give you something other than what you have right now. What you have right now is fear, doubt, negativity, inability to trust, hopelessness, pessimism, cynicism, lack of enthusiasm, agitation, sarcasm, and depression. That's where agnosticism and atheism takes you--I'm speaking from experience. There aren't any answers in buddhism, either. It's no wonder that so many end up seeking counseling for full-blown depression, like I did.
Okay, now here's the really exciting part!  Please listen, 'cause this is why I'm still here. The reason that we get sick  is because we haven't been seeing our Counselor. Do you know who your Counselor is? It's Jesus!  If you will step out in faith and TRUST HIM  , He will come to you and He will SPEAK to YOU !! Have you ever heard someone say that God speaks to them? Or have you ever heard someone talk about "the still, small voice of God?" Well, He talks to me everyday, and He wants to talk to you too! Check this link out:
http://www.cwgministries.org/Four-Keys-to-Hearing-Gods-Voice.htm
If you come to Him, He will make you one of His. He will tell you that you don't have anything to fear. You don't have to fear death anymore! He wants to be your Guide & personal Counselor! He has a sense of humor and He loves you unconditionally!
So, you see, it's not a "rubber bone" at all. It's like a Ruth's Chris Filet that lasts forever! Trust Him! The proof is in the pudding!
I hope this helps,
Supertzar
(Message edited by Supertzar On 02/03/2009 17:13:08)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12, NIV
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. --Hebrews 10:35-36, NIV.
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Weetie
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5#
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From: USA
Registered:01/26/2009
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:02/04/2009 08:44:02)
Supertzar -
I've read many of your posts on this site. You don't pay the least attention to what anybody is actually talking about. You don't engage in a genuine CONVERSATION with them. All you do is repeat pat phrases about Jesus, like a parrot. You make no attempt to actually understand or relate to what I or anybody else are dealing with. I expect that in real life you are rather socially underdeveloped and use your religiousness as a protective device so that you don't have to learn to deal with the compexities of true personal interaction. In that sense you are no different than certain people who made my religious experience so miserable. Judging from your own admission that Jesus & Satan both physically appeared to you, I'd say you are schizophrenic. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. John Nash, who's story is portrayed in "A Beautiful Mind" won the Nobel Prize, despite being schizophrenic. I have a good friend who for years has heard the voice of Satan. His mom's born-again and only ever told him to pray about it & never thought to suggest anything more helpful, like therapy. Prayer did nothing for him except make him feel like he was screaming to God for help & getting nothing. I finally talked him in to getting counseling and now he hears the voices much less frequently and is better able to cope with life in general. I seriously think he would have wound up hurting himself or somebody else if he hadn't gotten real help. He hears voices because he's schizophrenic. You see religious visions because YOU are schizophrenic. You have admitted to a history of radical personality swings. You've described yourself as a former hard-core fundamentalist, then hard-core atheist, and now are all born-again-again. This is also symptomatic of schizophrenia. Your inability to actually converse with people is also an indication of this. My friend is just the same - he rarely talks WITH me about something. He mainly talks TO me. Do you understand the difference?
You suggest I go to the link you attached & listen to their tips for hearing God's voice. I have a suggestion for you: contact a therapist or counsellor & speak to them about your religious visions.
I also have a request: Please do not reply to my posts any more. I would like to connect with someone who can genuinely relate to me & have a discussion with them about my issues and theirs. I do not want to be prostletyzed by you any more.
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Supertzar
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6#
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Rank:none
Score:466
Posts:466
From: USA
Registered:08/01/2005
Time spent: 14799 hours
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Reply To Weetie
(Date Posted:02/04/2009 23:51:15)
Reply to Weetie (02/04/2009 08:44:02)
Hello Weetie, Thank you for reading my posts. I've been very careful to pay attention to what everybody is talking about. You expressed that you have a fear of death and asked if anyone else has had the same experience. I have, and that's what I've been trying to help you with. I don't repeat pat phrases about Jesus--I don't have to--I speak from my own experience. I'm not exaggerating or fabricating lies. Having bailed out of fundamentalism, I understand and relate to what you and others are dealing with--that's why I'm here. Like you, I also used to jerk awake with thoughts of my own death, fearful of not existing anymore and thinking about how pointless my life and everything else is. It would be like a terrifying rush and I would awaken with a weak, sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I called them "morning terrors." I know exactly how agnostics and atheists think because I've held both positions. Something else you said got my attention. Salvation is a "protective device," but "religiousness" won't get you anywhere. Spirituality is not the same thing as "religiousness." The fear of death you have is a built-in mechanism designed to help you find Jesus. It helps you home in. You won't be happy without Him, and you can't leave here without Him. Do you want to keep waking up with death and nothingness on your mind? Don't you want some assurance and peace of mind? I'm not schizophrenic. Spirituality is not the same thing as schizophrenia. I used to think the same thing as well. Nobody that I have daily interactions with--family, friends, people at school, or people at church think that I'm schizophrenic. My past mood swings were due to alcohol abuse, and the alcohol abuse was caused by being consumed with the kind of thoughts that go along with agnosticism and atheism (like the fear of death that you have mentioned). Agnosticism and atheism also creates a lot of anger, hostility, and even rage. Those things don't mix with alcohol. That's a recipe for mood swings and personality disorders! Hearing the voice of God is not schizophrenic behavior. It's not new either--it is written about several times in the Bible and it's not hard to find people who hear Him. Some have seen Him too. You don't have to go to any links if you don't want to--just walk into any church and find a witness--there are many! Inquire within! By the way, I do not see any therapists, counselors, or psychiatrists. I'm in college and I make good grades. I've been sober for 20 months now and I'm not on any drugs of any sort other than vitamins and aspirin. In short, I've never been healthier--or happier! Why don't you lighten up a little?   G'day, ~Supertzar 
(Message edited by Supertzar On 02/05/2009 02:00:52)
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Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12, NIV
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. --Hebrews 10:35-36, NIV.
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lsl_mss
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7#
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Rank:none
Score:162
Posts:162
Registered:03/06/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:02/10/2009 08:59:17)
Hi, Weetie! I haven't been around in awhile, so you may not recognize me. I promise I'm not a troll.  I am currently agnostic/atheist - kind of in between the two. Anyway - I know what you mean. For myself, I do believe *something* happens to us after we die - just from my own personal experiences with ghosts in homes I have lived in. What it is that happens, I couldn't say. But I have also thought about - what if there's nothing? I know a lot of people find that very unnerving - as if there is no purpose to our life here if there isn't something afterwards. I guess i kind of look at it as: A. If there is nothing afterwards, I'm not going to know about it anyway. I'll die thinking I'm going to be a spirit in some form and figure out what to do from there. B. Maybe the point of that "this is it" thinking would be to treasure and celebrate every moment we *do* have on earth? Then I try to relate it to other living things. Is that dog worried about what happens when he dies? Does a plant resist death? (OK - I know plants don't think - but are they not one of the most fundamental things of nature and do they not simply adjust and move along with/accept whatever comes their way?) I guess I think that way because on some level, we are just scientific living organisms just like animals and plants. We, as humans, are the ones that have achieved greater intelligence and therefore somehow separated ourselves, in a manner of speaking, from the undeniably "scientific" portion of ourselves. I dont' know - I don't want to start rambling. LOL My DH and I were just talking about the whole death thing a couple of nights ago - he is one of the folks who, if there is nothing else after this, find it quite depressing. So - he needs to believe something, and he chooses to believe something. (He is still a CHristian - not a fundy - but it is still really hard sometimes - we have never found a good way to mesh our beliefs when it comes to sharing our spiritual lives....In fact, I came here today to post a question about just that!!) I'll make one book suggestion. Many Lives, Many Masters by Brian Weiss. It offers a different perspective on God/afterlife, etc. It supports the thoughts of reincarnation. It's actually an account of a doc stumbling onto past life regression therapy with this one particular patient. I'm sure some folks think it is just as wacky as the next religious book.....I found it very freeing, personally. And it doesn't seem to ascribe to or endorse any particular religion/religious beliefs, in my mind. It was this book that gave me the strength to walk away from Christianity. I dont' know why, it just did. It's a quick read. You can probably pick it up at the library and be done in a day or two. It's light and easy. ....And it made more sense to me than *anything* the fundies taught me. So, gosh, I don't know if I helped you at all. Rest easy, Weetie. You'll get it figured out for yourself. 
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Courage is the price life exacts for granting peace.
~Amelia Earhart
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Supertzar
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8#
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Rank:none
Score:466
Posts:466
From: USA
Registered:08/01/2005
Time spent: 14799 hours
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(Date Posted:02/11/2009 22:05:26)
There are dark forces at work. I am speaking from experience. If you make Satan your master, he will destroy you. He wants nothing more than to lead you away from God. If you stray too far from God's will, you will lose God's protection and you will be overwhelmed by Satan. Satan wants to confuse and confound you. If you choose false ideologies like reincarnation or witchcraft, God will stop pursuing you--you'll be blinded and you won't be able to find your way out. I'm not trying to scare anybody, I just want to warn you. There is only one life and one Master--Jesus Christ!  http://www.jesus2020.com/jesus.html This life is your one and only chance to know Him. You won't get a second chance... God placed the fear of death in you so that you would look for Him. If you will make Jesus your friend, He will help you escape death--it's the only way. If you will come to Him, He will prepare a place for you. He's waiting to talk to you right now! He really does speak! For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. --2 Thessalonians 2:7-10~Supertzar
(Message edited by Supertzar On 02/11/2009 23:05:03)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12, NIV
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. --Hebrews 10:35-36, NIV.
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lsl_mss
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9#
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Rank:none
Score:162
Posts:162
Registered:03/06/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:02/12/2009 07:10:23)
Weetie -
we used to have the GLORIOUS ability to block posts from members that we didn't care to see. It was fantastic - since we no longer seem to have that ( I couldn't find it anyway), I'm going to suggest you don't even spend the time to read posts from those that you know are just here to harrass and bother you.
I'll check into it further to see if we still have that ability and I just can't find it - maybe Snakey knows......She knows everything. 
LM
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Courage is the price life exacts for granting peace.
~Amelia Earhart
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rjp3
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10#
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From: USA
Registered:10/07/2008
Time spent: 0 hours
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:02/22/2009 21:07:34)
I was taught long ago that you have a soul, and it doesn't die. And our souls come from a place you can call 'the other side', and our souls return there when we die.
I have had dreams in the last few years that were very reassuring. All of my immediate family--my parents, and my dad's parents, who were the only grandparents I ever knew--are dead. My mom (who taught me the above) was the last of them to go.
About 5 years ago, several months after my mother died, I had a dream in which I floated straight upward, out of my body. The next thing I knew, I found myself in a room with several people who were all together, chatting and generally enjoying themselves.
They all looked like my parents and Dad's parents, although they resembled how they looked when they each were in their 30s. My parents looked rather like they did in photos from the 1950s, Dad's parents looked somewhat like they did in pictures from the 1920s.
The nearest person looked the most like Grandpa, and I remember approaching him, and getting ready to ask him 'Grandpa? Is that really you?' when I woke up, and found myself back in my body. That sucked, but I knew I'd see them again someday, and eventually be reunited with them. And I was happy to know they were together, and doing well, and were happy.
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sdan49
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11#
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From: USA
Registered:04/01/2009
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:04/01/2009 14:10:38)
Hi, Weetie!
I just joined this forum today, and I can relate very well to your struggle. My experience is similar to yours, except instead of waking up at night thinking about oblivion or extinction, I wake up thinking simply about "being dead". Maybe there's no difference? Anyway, since I retired five years ago I have spent a lot of time reading all different types of books, and blogging like this. You can read my brief intro in the Introductions section.
One of the main problems I have always had with the Bible is the fact that the book is self-referencing and self-validating; in other words, it states that it is the Word of God. We have no separate or other texts to cross-reference this. In no other area of human thought or history do we do this -- allow one text to confirm upon itself its own authority without outside references.
After 60 years of contemplating all that Evangelical Christianity is, I am left not knowing much more than when I started. I don't think it is possible to "know" what happens when we die. That's the problem for skeptics and empiricists like myself; faith is necessary, but then, faith is also needed in all areas of human endeavor, including science. I suppose this is of little comfort to you, but I have stopped giving out pleasant platitudes. I simply don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either.
What I am learning as I hit my later years is that this life should not be wasted. Since we do not know if there is anything beyond the grave, we should strive to live these years the best we can. That's what I am trying to do. I enjoy my life, and find great pleasure and satisfaction in simple things. Finally, this is enough for me.
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snakechic
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12#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Reply To lsl%5Fmss
(Date Posted:04/30/2009 18:59:57)
Reply to lsl_mss (02/12/2009 07:10:23)
Weetie -
we used to have the GLORIOUS ability to block posts from members that we didn't care to see. It was fantastic - since we no longer seem to have that ( I couldn't find it anyway), I'm going to suggest you don't even spend the time to read posts from those that you know are just here to harrass and bother you.
I'll check into it further to see if we still have that ability and I just can't find it - maybe Snakey knows......She knows everything.
LM
Its a bugger alright! it all gets very tedious and time wastin' doesn't it. I don't know if that 'blocking' thingy works ....maybe try asking AIMOO HELP at their 'help' site. (look it up) Ummm...other than that...like you said somewhere ..its a good(bad) reminder of how obnoxious fundies, bornagainers...or whatever you want to call it..... behave. You'd think if a person is serious about doin' 'godswork' they'd get up off their fat arse and away from the computer...or easy targets - familiar easy territory and really try something new for a change.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Guest
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/05/2009 23:29:09)
After living an extreme fundamental lifestyle for 30 years I have
walked away over the past two years...not from the deep down truths I
choose to believe, but from the religion of christianity. Although I
still have a handful of close friends I have attended 'church' with for
those 30 years, I am honest with them when they ask me to join their
bible studies and devote myself to furthering their cause. I feel loved
and free enough to tell them that I no longer value wasting my days and
nights seeking and studying...I instead have chosen to put my faith
into practice and live. By worrying about things like life after death,
pleasing God, pleasing people, etc..I am proving that I really don't
believe that the God I have professed all these years is really in
control. By TRYING so hard I really did the opposite of what I wanted
to do. It was when I gave up that I really found the peace I was
looking for all those years. I am done trying, instead I am spending
more time listening to the people I work with, live with and come
accross each day. I listen and share my life, I cry with them and laugh
with them, I extend a helping hand when I can.
It's interesting that when I gave up trying, my relationships became
better. I no longer see ANYONE as better or worse than myself. I see no
one as a 'ministry' or a project to work on. I now can just accept and
am accepted. Do I still believe that there was once someone sent by God
to do something so I don't have to do the worrying anymore?...yes. Do I
need to know or worry about all the details?... no.
If there is a creator, my guess is that they wouldn't have created us
to sit around worrying about what happens when the lights go out, but
there does seem to be something in each of us that tells us we are
expected to treat our fellow human beings with compassion and
respect...it doesn't seem like we need religious teachers or gurus to
point this out to us.
Just me 1 1/2 cents worth :>)
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Supertzar
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14#
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Rank:none
Score:466
Posts:466
From: USA
Registered:08/01/2005
Time spent: 14799 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/12/2009 01:45:39)
Hold Your Head Up, Whoa!
B-58 Hustler on takeoff--prepare to board the Shazamobile!
(Message edited by Supertzar On 05/12/2009 02:49:10)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12, NIV
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. --Hebrews 10:35-36, NIV.
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snakechic
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15#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/12/2009 21:07:37)
That's for sure! How can there be an EXPERT in these things. The religious leaders of all denoms set themselves up as AUTHORITY FIGURES and this turns people into FOLLOWERS - sheep! Mindless .....no idea of how to be individuals or create potential for learning...experimenting and so on.
Guest...I also love the fact you write "IF" there is a god.
To Weetie...Hi.
I haven't exactly experienced the same stuff as you have. However, I think at some point EVERYONE experiences a kind 'fear of death' ...for example as we reach adulthood - there is a certain discovery of the mortality of life...and also as some people go through various life stages such as a 'midlife crisis' there can be a deeper understanding of the shortness of life - failures etc etc and therefore can create a certain anxiety. I think this is often disguised as a 'want' of some assurance or could I say ...a 'belief' that life is not finite or ends with 'death'. . Past "middle age" things tend to make some people are more worried about thoughts that their lives have been useful and they seek out ways to contribute. People can spend heaps of time trying to find some ways to comfort themselves rather than looking at death in a positive manner ie...that death is vital for the environment. Its useful and necessary for life on this planet - this is our home.
anyhow...Its all pretty 'normal' stuff to be going through.. .so don't feel so alone in it....
as we all probably know... its when religion gets hold of that kind of 'normal' thought pattern that things get way out of hand. The 'church' uses 'death' as one of its main 'hooks' and topics of discussion/sermon/godma - so its no wonder many religious or formally religious people can become fixated on 'death' - which btw to me is a 'normal' part of life or should I say an end of it.
I think 'fear' is used as a commodity within religion.
I have also seen 'christians' behave very oddly at funerals - not acting imo..with respect for the dead. With the advent of 'life after death'....ie. the reward of a so called 'faithful' life of servitude to 'god' people are often tempted to become JUDGE as to what kind of place the person is heading towards in death ie. 'hell' or heaven'...
Its all crap and imo very neurotic and one of the personal pay offs of being 'in the know' - a believer in the bible.
"life" after death ? Consider that its referred to a NEAR death experiences - in other words if the person was revived then they were not dead. Death needs to be defined.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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16#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/12/2009 21:30:10)
--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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sdan49
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17#
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From: USA
Registered:04/01/2009
Time spent: 0 hours
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/13/2009 09:11:54)
To snakechic...
The poster known here as "lsl_mss" referred me to a great book -- "Leaving the Fold", by Marlene Winell. Dr. Winell gives insight into the psychological basis for the use of fear in religion -- especially Calvinist fundamentalism. I cannot say enough good things about this book. I read it twice in the space of about three weeks, and plan to get my own copy from Amazon.com. I also plan to read several of the books mentioned at the end in her bibliography.
Even though I have been gone from fundamentalism since 1968, I still note some unreasonable fears and prejudices in myself based on the indoctrination which I have attempted to shake all of my adult life. I have found one of the most helpful things (for me, at least) is to live each day in the moment, and finally stop obsessing about life after death. Also, to stop trying to be "completely understood" by others. It's impossible, so why try so hard? When you can finally do this, it becomes much easier to ignore and dismiss the trolls (see above) here on these boards, as well other salespeople in everyday life. Everyone is entitled to their own view and opinion, but I will never again be the "mark" for any religionist, especially fundamentalist Christians.
(Message edited by sdan49 On 05/13/2009 09:45:37)
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rjp3
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18#
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From: USA
Registered:10/07/2008
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/14/2009 21:45:26)
Reply to snakechic (05/12/2009 21:07:37)
I
have also seen 'christians' behave very oddly at funerals - not acting
imo..with respect for the dead. With the advent of 'life after
death'....ie. the reward of a so called 'faithful' life of servitude to
'god' people are often tempted to become JUDGE as to what kind of place
the person is heading towards in death ie. 'hell' or heaven'...
Its all crap and imo very neurotic and one of the personal pay offs of being 'in the know' - a believer in the bible.
This
brought to mind a sick case in point I heard about from a friend of
mine about 11 years ago. A rather troubled friend of his had committed
suicide, and my friend told me afterward about the funeral, which was
held in a very large Baptist church in the town where his friend had
lived.
The funeral was presided over by the church's pastor, one of those
über-educated types with the title 'Doctor' to his name, with all the
haughtiness and arrogance you'd expect. One of those loud, over-blown
and hyper-dramatic hellfire-and-brimstone performers....you get the
idea.
As for me, I've never attended a funeral set in a church, only those
set in funeral homes, so I have no working knowledge of how they're
done differently because of this. What my friend told me had happened
at this funeral was especially disturbing, and, I thought, absolutely
out of line given the circumstances.
Apparently the pastor, who didn't know the deceased, but had been
apprised of the events leading to his death, eventually pontificated on
this, and had the audacity to proclaim that because of what he did,
there was no doubt but that he was rotting in hell for his sins. I
thought a funeral was supposed to honour the life and memory of the
departed, and give some comfort to his surviving family and friends.
Obviously the statements he made couldn't have failed to do exactly the
opposite.
At the end of his remarks, he turned the funeral into what I call the
'church cattle-call': the old 'any sinners here who wish to repent,
and commit your lives to Jesus, come down here to the front and pray
for God to forgive you' bit. In other words, what should have been a
memorial to this tragic figure became first a tawdry spectacle, and
then just another Baptist church service.
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snakechic
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19#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Reply To sdan49
(Date Posted:05/31/2009 19:46:25)
Reply to sdan49 (05/13/2009 09:11:54)
To snakechic...
The poster known here as "lsl_mss" referred me to a great book -- "Leaving the Fold", by Marlene Winell. Dr. Winell gives insight into the psychological basis for the use of fear in religion -- especially Calvinist fundamentalism. I cannot say enough good things about this book. I read it twice in the space of about three weeks, and plan to get my own copy from Amazon.com. I also plan to read several of the books mentioned at the end in her bibliography.
Even though I have been gone from fundamentalism since 1968, I still note some unreasonable fears and prejudices in myself based on the indoctrination which I have attempted to shake all of my adult life. I have found one of the most helpful things (for me, at least) is to live each day in the moment, and finally stop obsessing about life after death. Also, to stop trying to be "completely understood" by others. It's impossible, so why try so hard? When you can finally do this, it becomes much easier to ignore and dismiss the trolls (see above) here on these boards, as well other salespeople in everyday life. Everyone is entitled to their own view and opinion, but I will never again be the "mark" for any religionist, especially fundamentalist Christians.
Hello sdan! Pleased to meet you. Sorry for the delay in my reply but I'm not so caught up with 'christianity' these days and find I don't have the same free time to spend online. I also thought I left IT all behind waaaay back in the early 70's when I left my parents home and began my own life in the 'big' world. ...which btw...in Australia is pretty much secular and in those days easy to avoid contact with religious stuff. HOwever my close sibling was drawn into pentecostalism - a very strict - legalistic - abusive group which kinda reignited the whole thing of what kind of dangerous people these 'christian' can be. anyway...long story... Fear...and prejudices. Yeah....the "Us and THEM' dogma that most christian/religious people advocate. I guess its to self motivate - give rationale for being a member of their particular brand of religion. Quite often mistrust is created of 'other' churches...and generally anything 'other' than your very own particular group. Its a very unhealthy way of life most often leading to breakup of families and marriages. Not only full of fear...but anger and hate. I do tend to agree with you re: easier to ignore and dismiss but when its your own family members hitting on you to join their church it can be quite different....and difficult. I think thats when a person needs to learn more direct techniques of how to handle PESTS...and people who don't respect your boundaries. I guess..thats when its necessary to understand that you' are entitled to your space. Some people who have been brought up with christianity...learn that there is no such thing as privacy and boundaries....but are encouraged to 'confess' every little thing about themselves to anyone. anyhow... death. For me...its a waste of time to ponder such a thing. I have more pressing 'life' stuff to do. It kinda makes me a bit impatient to hear of people going on and on about 'death'....I figure its for a good reason people do this.......its sure puts off doing other stuff...dealing with all sorts of issues at hand. Its a fine distraction... self absorbed - doing bugger all...contemplating navel stuff. I tend to get to the point and ask 'what are you avoiding'....'what are you really afraid of'.. Indoctrination: me....I don't buy that line hook line and sinker and I don't agree with labellling people as forever 'sick' or damaged as Winnel seems to. ? That kind of thing is good for a therapists busness. #chuckles# I don't believe 'chrisitianity' is that powerful for a start. I think many people use it as an excuse for not changing themselves...or should I say, things about themselves that they don't like. I guess...I'm more of a optimist about people's capacity to change (independently) Never say never....*chuckles* I've been surprised at the number of people who return to religion. I'm making sure by updating my information about christianity/religion. And also respecting my 'gut' feelings - the revoltion I feel towards 'christianity' - the godspeil which I put down to poor sales job....also bearing in mind HIstory....there have been entire civilisations dedicated to the afterlife. WHY...ego among other things...yeah..history is blast. !
--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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20#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Reply To rjp3
(Date Posted:05/31/2009 20:08:59)
Reply to rjp3 (05/14/2009 21:45:26)
Reply to snakechic (05/12/2009 21:07:37)
I have also seen 'christians' behave very oddly at funerals - not acting imo..with respect for the dead. With the advent of 'life after death'....ie. the reward of a so called 'faithful' life of servitude to 'god' people are often tempted to become JUDGE as to what kind of place the person is heading towards in death ie. 'hell' or heaven'...
Its all crap and imo very neurotic and one of the personal pay offs of being 'in the know' - a believer in the bible.
This brought to mind a sick case in point I heard about from a friend of mine about 11 years ago. A rather troubled friend of his had committed suicide, and my friend told me afterward about the funeral, which was held in a very large Baptist church in the town where his friend had lived. The funeral was presided over by the church's pastor, one of those über-educated types with the title 'Doctor' to his name, with all the haughtiness and arrogance you'd expect. One of those loud, over-blown and hyper-dramatic hellfire-and-brimstone performers....you get the idea. As for me, I've never attended a funeral set in a church, only those set in funeral homes, so I have no working knowledge of how they're done differently because of this. What my friend told me had happened at this funeral was especially disturbing, and, I thought, absolutely out of line given the circumstances. Apparently the pastor, who didn't know the deceased, but had been apprised of the events leading to his death, eventually pontificated on this, and had the audacity to proclaim that because of what he did, there was no doubt but that he was rotting in hell for his sins. I thought a funeral was supposed to honour the life and memory of the departed, and give some comfort to his surviving family and friends. Obviously the statements he made couldn't have failed to do exactly the opposite. At the end of his remarks, he turned the funeral into what I call the 'church cattle-call': the old 'any sinners here who wish to repent, and commit your lives to Jesus, come down here to the front and pray for God to forgive you' bit. In other words, what should have been a memorial to this tragic figure became first a tawdry spectacle, and then just another Baptist church service. Howdy rjp3 Yeah...I get the idea. Nothing worst. I think a degree in christianity/religious studies is pretty much an oxymoron. You are dealing with fairy tales! Yeah..funerals can get really bad......lots of bad memories created here. They use 'death' as a commodity to sell their bullshit and inflict a bit more guilt and sorrow. Then they have the cheek to ask of money for this 'service'. Its horrible...!!!! But in my experiences....its not only the pastor but the people in congregation that seems to get a 'buzz' out this sick shit. I know that within the pentecostals...the entire congregation is not 'allowed' to show any sign of grief but must act like silly fucking school children giggling and singing. Its a mock up...the atmosphere is surreal. Talk about 'judgement'...!!! That gleeful 'they goin' ta hell'...For what you might ask?...for not being a member of their church. Something I won't forget. When I was a kid ...my parents joined the Baptist after the Seven day Adventist... yeah. Whooo and nothing much changed for me. I don't know....These days I don't think it matters which denomination we are talking about - I think the whole thing - chrisitianity in general is flawed and corrupt. $$$$$$$$$$ Put it this way....no such thing as a 'perfect' church'.
--------------------------------------------------------------
In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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rjp3
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21#
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From: USA
Registered:10/07/2008
Time spent: 0 hours
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Re:Fear of death
(Date Posted:05/31/2009 20:42:58)
Hi, Snakechic! I feel lucky I'm nearing a place in myself, by way of time away from churches and to myself, that I can forgive people for their hanging on to the BS of so many churches. I've grown past needing them, but that fact isn't something to lord over (someone shout ahem!) anyone else. I can still talk a good game with a number of them. I managed it a couple of nights ago when one of the ex-landlords showed up here, needing some CDs copied from a recording, in fact. But the act is very tiring.
I didn't know that about Pentecostals at funerals. But as weird as they typically are (in all caps, italicised, and in bold face and underlined) I can believe it. What gets me is, they're all so dead set against such things as seances, BUT--they try to 'summon' the 'Holy Spirit' at their services. And when you factor in the bits about how they say their Satan can manifest himself as anything he wants to, it begs the question, how do those people know whether what shows up in the guise of their 'Holy Spirit' really IS God or their Satan doing the ultimate spiritual Rich Little? I know--they just take things on faith....yawn.... Conjuring is conjuring, isn't it?
By the way, my friend was so enraged by what transpired at that funeral he could hardly speak. And he's a cradle Catholic! They do masses for the dead that are much more reverent and all that, much more respectful of the departed.
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