While involved in religion, did you ever have what you considered spiritual experiences;things that were (or even still are) difficult to explain away through logic? For example, did you ever recieve or witness what you thought was a miracle or supernatural healing? Or perhaps you were "slain in the spirit", heard what you thought was god's voice, or something along those lines.
If so, did these experiences (or the memory of them) make you stay in your religion longer than you likely would have without them? Were they hard to let go of, in other words, because they made an impression on you. Do you still wonder about/question these experiences today?
I was always the clueless person when it came to "feeling the Spirit". I always thought that God kind of left me be for whatever reason. I never got slain in the spirit, heard any voices, shook or cried in church, or any of that stuff. I did go to healing services and watched what appeared to be people getting healed, but they were all things that could easily have been faked. Maybe as bad as I wanted a sign, my logic got the better of me and my mind was ultimately unwilling to generate an experience or to beleive in a miracle that was questionable. I never honestly got personally "touched" nor did I get wowed by some major apparition or creative miracle. I think that this made it easier for me to make the break with religion.
I've spoken with people who have gone on some major holy ghost trips while in the church, or have seen stuff they still can't explain, and who for whatever reason walked away in later years. I always think these people are pretty strong, and I don't know if I could have done that. I was always secretly looking for some personal proof from god. Other people have gotten what I prayed for all those years and yet still saw through the smoke and mirrors.
So, what was your wildest spiritual trip and how do you see it now?
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RE:Spiritual experiences
(Date Posted:03/18/2008 7:00 PM)
Not that I can remember as a child. I had NO choice but to follow my parents religion (adventism). I was impressionable if you like (as any kid) a fairly adventeous but not willling to go along with something for the sake of it kinda kid. I wasn't into performing in front of people and luckily the sdaist's weren't that into 'needing signs' business - they were more into foot washing ?
btw..as an adult - I don't allow myself to become hypnotised either.
Funny coincidence ...I just watched a bit of this over at http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/ THe kids on these clips are an outstanding example of how exploitative the 'signs & wonders' trip can get. Its not real. Check out the comments on 'debunking' - christian fundies tend to get their nickers in a knot over this stuff. I think it is child abuse.
I agree the 'heallings' , speaking in tongues looks like they can be very easily faked. I had a little glimpse of that when I went to a pentie 'church' a few times to please my sister ( a great way to manipulate through 'love') Its very obvious to the 'outsider' that most people are not 'touched'. I was baptisted the last time I went to that church but I didn't fall over nor did I speak in tongues (as a sign of my so called salvation) so the pastor said his usual piece to save the day...said into the mic... "it takes time for some folks" totally contradicting his own Acts 1 dogma. later..other's in the congregation offered me their hand and said 'I didn't speak in tongues straight way either' 'don't worry'.... Following that I left town so the only contact I had with any of them was by phone. EVERY SINGLE phone call, I was told to "PRACTISE" my tongues' as if it was something TO LEARN by rote and...I guess is for most people. Other's can loose 'control' of their tongue (and brain) and do it almost immediately. Its also important to mention that I also got private tuition from the pastor in 'tongue speaking' prior to the actual "on show" baptism.
Signs and Wonders? what I heard was pretty mandane stuff. I think they probably ran out of ideas or performances .
Yes..I've also spoken to a few people who have had 'holy ghost trips' and yep..they are out of chrisitanity altogether.
Its a great topic.! How did you come down off your spiritual trip? (or not)
(Message edited by snakechic on 03/18/2008 11:15 PM)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
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RE:Spiritual experiences
(Date Posted:03/19/2008 6:00 PM)
To add another spin on this topic - perhaps it might good to define 'spiritual'?
I don't think the 'spiritual experience' relies on religion or belongs to the religious or for that matter has a super natural element. (this is probably not what the question of this topic asks) but anyway...
to say briefly. Yep ..I have experienced profound moments of self awareness - to know who I am etc and felt feelings of awe in moments of connection to others - particularly in presence of everyday human events like death and birth.
Being in out in the sun with the wind in my face...all that stuff is great!
ah..yet another way to answer
I suffered on going and terrible nightmares as a child - triggered by fear and created by my imagination. The bible stories were largely responsible but also the 'fear' or unease I picked up from the adults around me at church and at home. I won't go further than that. Fear , sleep deprivation , worry etc will all cause delusions.
(Message edited by snakechic on 03/19/2008 6:25 PM)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
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RE:Spiritual experiences
(Date Posted:04/01/2008 1:57 PM)
It took me a few years to de-program myself from what constitutes a spiritual experience. I'm still learning.
During my transition out of the church, I started meditating, and discovered that I could myself calm down and deal with all the confusing feelings I was having at the time. I found that it helped me deal with my family, work, even the church stuff. It takes alot of discipline for me to meditate cause I'm ADD and my mind is always running 1000 miles an hour. Still, it works!
I remember one time, my mother and her then husband wanted me to go to church with them. I had pretty much quit going to church by that time, but the family thought it was due only to my disappointment with church people. I hadn't let on that I'd been moving away from the religion itself. I felt I still needed to go along with the family's wishes because I was still living at home and was still functioning as the secretary of the minsitry my mom and her hubby were the heads of. Anyway, I went along with them to this church service, and spent the entire praise and worship time quietly meditating in my seat. I wasn't meditating on god, though...at least not the God they taught about in that church. I was so sick of all the praise songs and Jesus stuff that I literally blocked it out, cleared my mind, and imagined myself inside a forcefield where no ignorance or judgementalism could touch me. It sounds silly maybe, but when the service was over I didn't have the knot in my stomach that I usually did after church.
You mentioned "profound moments of self-awareness"....that's a great way to put it. Moments of deep contentment or enjoyment or even grief. I've had far more of those after leaving religion than I ever did while I was in it, because I no longer had to censor my feelings or pass them through the filter of "godliness". I think I was finally able to look at life simply as life rather than striving after some elusive heavenly experience. I spent so long beating myself up over not being able to conform to the charismatic Christian version of spirituality. Even after leaving, I had this sorrow over being "deficient" and wished I could feel something. Maybe I'm just not wired for ecstatic experiences, so what. I'll just try and enjoy whatever pleasures there are in being human and alive.
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RE:Spiritual experiences
(Date Posted:04/06/2008 4:42 PM)
Reply to logophile (04/01/2008 1:57 PM)
. I was so sick of all the praise songs and Jesus stuff that I literally blocked it out, cleared my mind, and imagined myself inside a forcefield where no ignorance or judgementalism could touch me. It sounds silly maybe, but when the service was over I didn't have the knot in my stomach that I usually did after church.
Boy!! can I relate to that. I used to do just that but not only at church but also at home........&.even after I left home. In times when I'd visit my folks. I'd sit and gauge and pick at my face if I didn't try to block it out.
In hide-sight ...my parents weren't as bad as some of the people (fundies) I read or bump into online or even my siblings more recent long and drawn out attempt at recruiting me. Maybe christian fundies have become more assertive or pushy this generation? Maybe its just been my experiences I don't know?
Quotes Logo..."I spent so long beating myself up over not being able to conform to the charismatic Christian version of spirituality. Even after leaving, I had this sorrow over being "deficient" and wished I could feel something. Maybe I'm just not wired for ecstatic experiences, so what. I'll just try and enjoy whatever pleasures there are in being human and alive."
I did too in a way (although we didn't attend a charamatic church per se) I was left with a vague but not easily denied - thought that I wasn't 'good enough'. I don't think its unusual to allow your parents/family and community (in this case church) the privilege of defining who you are or trying to control or change you. Especially not at that age - young adult or child. However...I somehow knew that the whole thing - the religious feelings that the adults around me said they felt - were not real or something I wanted to feel. It gave me the creeps! Gave me a funny feeling that I can now identify as intuition or however you want to define it. That 'knot in the stomach' was very...very useful!
(Message edited by snakechic on 04/06/2008 4:55 PM)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
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