What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma

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Title: What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma

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snakechic	\| Move to Bottom Author
Rank:none Score: 0 Posts: 3462 From: Registered: 11/02/2004 Time spent: 1846 hours	(Date Posted:04/23/2008 6:49 PM) Are you still looking for proof of a 'god' or 'proof' that the bible was indeed inspired by the divine at the same time telling yourself that 'god' is beyond all that anyway? If so ... How come? Can you identify why you 'want' there to be 'order' in life Chaos - how does that grab you? (Message edited by snakechic on 04/23/2008 9:28 PM) -------------------------------------------------------------- In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation. -- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God

Chirpy	\| Move to Top \| Move to Bottom 1#
From: Registered: 03/06/2003 Time spent: 0 hours	RE:What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma (Date Posted:04/24/2008 12:36 AM) No, but I'm tempted to see psychics from time to time. I was at an Natural Health Show where I live (been going there for years now) and came across an animal whisperer (www.animal-insight.co.uk) who could read your pets minds for you. I was sorely tempted until I found that she did cold readings. She didn't want to meet the pet or even see a photograph and I have since found out that this is called a cold reading. I was sitting there reading the information until she told to get up and leave and somebody else was coming. No they hadn't had an appointment she had caught the eye of two other attendees and had beckoned them over. I really hate that type of attitude. You talk to an assistant in a shop or stallholder and because they could sense you hedging a bit they'd rather go and hassle somebody else and leave you mid conversation.

lsl_mss	\| Move to Top \| Move to Bottom 2#
Rank:none Score:0 Posts:139 From: Registered: 03/06/2007 Time spent: 0 hours	RE:What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma (Date Posted:04/25/2008 11:05 AM) WHile I'm not in this stage any longer - for the greatest period of time it was FEAR - of God - of Hell - of being Ostracized, etc....That and having had limited contact with people who were NOT Christian - didn't even realize there was another choice for the longest time. -------------------------------------------------------------- Courage is the price life exacts for granting peace. ~Amelia Earhart

snakechic	\| Move to Top \| Move to Bottom 3#
Rank:none Score:0 Posts:3462 From: Registered: 11/02/2004 Time spent: 1846 hours	RE:What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma (Date Posted:04/25/2008 9:19 PM) thank you for both of your replies. Interesting you should mention 'psychics' Chirpy....and the 'fear' Islmss. I was reading another forum the other day and it occurred to me that some people hold onto stuff from their old church for ages and ages and that sometimes its related to a basic human 'want' of trying to find out an unknowable or win the big bet that is the basis of christianity. The old Pascals wager thing? ie. a person 'bets' or wagers that 'god' exists and lives their life accordingly and by some 'good luck' will succeed in scoring the big payoff which is 'eternal life'. Of course there is more to it than that...the bet also includes that the person is sure they are 'betting' on the right 'god' or church? and following the 'right' way..ie. 'by faith or works' .....or any number of things. There is little anyone can really do about this kind of 'uncertainty' and I guess the reason why xians have so much doubt? This is why people go to psychics to find out 'unknowables' ? and why some people obey or toe the line of their religion until they find out more information. Anyone heard of Bible numerics? (bit like numerology) Apparently its recommended as a valid 'theory' by the revival pentecostals my sister is still wrapped up in. I think people buy lottery tickets using a system and invest in the stock market for the same basic reason - the idea is to 'win' without it 'costing too much' because you have insider information. The idea that there is some way...through numbers or bible numerics/code to have some kind of advantage (proof) in this 'game' of life and death. Uncertainty of religion.... If I saw no signs of a divinity, I would fix myself in denial. If I saw everywhere the marks of a Creator, I would repose peacefully in faith. But seeing too much to deny Him, and too little to assure me, I am in a pitiful state, and I would wish a hundred times that if a God sustains nature it would reveal Him without ambiguity.^[6] We understand nothing of the works of God unless we take it as a principle that He wishes to blind some and to enlighten others.^[7] Wouldn't it be nice to know something for sure...get rid of that 'uncertainty' principle. That's basically what the 'bible numerics' offers. Do you believe it? Me...Nah...not one bit. I choose to live as if any 'god (s)' do not exist and I don't have to follow the bullshit rules and pay money to a religious organisation to tell me how to live or waste my time going to church when the organisation requires me to..etc etc...I'm not really a betting kind of person anyway and don't like to be pushed either way by a big stick or a silly carrot! There are probably heaps of ways christianity has tried to invent ways to 'assure' its followers - especially within the charismatic or more way out xian movements. (Message edited by snakechic on 04/26/2008 3:59 AM) -------------------------------------------------------------- In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation. -- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God

Chirpy	\| Move to Top \| Move to Bottom 4#
From: Registered: 03/06/2003 Time spent: 0 hours	RE:What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma (Date Posted:04/26/2008 2:45 PM) I started to see tarot readers, aura readers and runes readers at shows because I was a bit curious to see if they contradicted any prophecies I received in penty and charismatic churches. I never received a prophecy of good news in church or bible study groups and fundies bestowed with spiritual gifts were reluctant to tell me anything and I put that down to them not wanting any good to come to me. I came to the conclusion if they decided that they wanted so and so to be married or to gain a large sum of money they would be prophesise it would happen. The tarot reader and the aura reader I saw at the local branch of Lush. The tarot reader was doing a lot of guess work and guessed inaccurately where I was living but she did say that I should listen to other types of music other than rock music which was pretty much a good idea. The aura reader told me to get out of mental health work (I was considering this but felt trapped in it) and get out into nature as well as soaking my feet in dead sea salts every evening to help me sleep. A month later I left mental health work and campaigning for one year and then when I returned and went to two conferences found that nothing had moved on hardly and the jargon was different. I hadn't missed much and was glad I made the break when I did; with only the regret that I didn't make it earlier. I don't get much chance of getting out into nature living in the geographical centre of a city but when I do I feel very refreshed and a lot calmer as I did today. The only problem is that I have to go to the busy city centre in order to catch the bus or train and the weather has been very temperamental with a long winter of heavy rains and high winds followed by a late spring.

snakechic	\| Move to Top \| Move to Bottom 5#
Rank:none Score:0 Posts:3462 From: Registered: 11/02/2004 Time spent: 1846 hours	Reply To Chirpy (Date Posted:04/27/2008 8:37 PM) Yah - good point. "I came to the conclusion if they decided that they wanted so and so to be married or to gain a large sum of money they would be prophesise it would happen." They were in control of what they said to people! I only went to a couple of those 'services' where they did the prophesying - it followed the 'tongues' thingy. It blew me away really. I didn't know much about it or what to think at the time. I guess that's the point of it. - so people stop thinking and just act or perform like robots? Weird... very weird? I'm glad to have little experience with that stuff but I still curious. I still think overly religious people are robotic in their mannerism. They tend to 'repulse me' ...yukky! I get that awful feeling in my stomach. I don't think I could have 'put up' with more of a show than I saw on those few occasions. The 'prophecies' were very lame..very obscure ie. "the wind of change will beckon on the door step of the faithful' or some other semi biblical language to say 'bugger all'.! It was dumb! I couldn't believe my ears . "The tarot reader and the aura reader " Years ago I had a good friend who into all that stuff and did read my tarot. I ended up being so curious I bought a couple of my own packs and learnt how to do it. I tried to take it seriously for awhile but in the end I wasn't convinced it was anything but using guesswork and a bit of a system. I do think there are commonalities - symbols that everyone relates to. I think its great if you can get 'good advice' from any place - stuff like 'go relax in a nice warm salt bath' etc but I don't see why listening to 'rock and roll' is a bad idea unless its too loud and might damage your ear drums ?. But I don't like it when they charge money for it. To me that sets it up as a con job. I think I've mentioned this before..we have regular 'readings' set up in the middle of the our local Mall. That to me is crap! Nature is great Chirpy! We now live out a little way from the city - only 30km and have a few acres. Its beautiful sometimes. We had our neighbours 'on loan' horses running around our block on the weekend. All 7 of them...including a little baby foal. I'm no country gal..so its taken me a little while to get used to the size of the horses. ..but they are just like big dogs, with their own personalities and manners. I'm even patting them now. So cute. They are going back to their owners soon. Long winter.....Ooo...sounds debilitating and a wee bit depressing. We've just had summer but my garden is already starting to dry up. (here it rains in summer)....so we find that a tad disappointing - after all our hard work of planting shrubs, tree etc. I can't stand high wind - lucky we don't get too much of that here. (Message edited by snakechic on 04/27/2008 8:42 PM) -------------------------------------------------------------- In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation. -- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God

MothandRust	\| Move to Top \| Move to Bottom 6#
From: Australia Registered: 02/27/2004 Time spent: 0 hours	RE:What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma (Date Posted:04/28/2008 6:19 AM) Wouldn't it be nice to know something for sure...get rid of that 'uncertainty' principle. That's basically what the 'bible numerics' offers. Welllll... what the bible numerics say to me is that the writers of the new testament, or translaters, were very superstitious people who held to a pattern of numerology. Seven is obviously used as a spiritual positive number, and thirteen has roots here of being 'unlucky'. Forty also has some connotations of being a time period (perhaps in relation to the weeks women are pregnant), eg. 40 days of rain, 40 days of fasting, 40 years in the wilderness etc. I'm not saying that because these patterns are there that it = god. But I am saying that there is a standard of number symbolism in the bible text. :-P -------------------------------------------------------------- Dont you get it? Its all Christianity, people! The little stupid differences are nothing next to the big stupid similarities! (Bart Simpson)

snakechic	\| Move to Top 7#
Rank:none Score:0 Posts:3462 From: Registered: 11/02/2004 Time spent: 1846 hours	RE:What keeps you 'chained' to the bible or to a religious dogma (Date Posted:04/29/2008 4:21 PM) Yeah Blood Oath!...you could easily say that the bible people were very superstitious (and still are!). There is all sorts of stuff in the bible - its a very BIG book. There's astrology and all kinds of magical thinking presented. I don't see that number can have a 'spiritual' quality - they are quantitative symbols. But the inventor Ivan Panin certainly considers his own ideas as proof................from Wiki Bible Numerics is the study of numerical patterns in the Bible (particularly involving the number seven) and the use of particular numbers to represent certain concepts. It was pioneered by Ivan Panin from around 1890 until his death in 1942. It was considered by Panin proof that the Bible is divinely inspired, and some modern Christians share this view................ Some Christians regard Bible numerics as irrefutable proof that the Bible is divinely inspired. Those who believe in Bible numerics have used it to "prove" the authenticity and divine inspiration of controversial Bible passages such as Mark 16 (the last portion of Mark 16 is very important to some Christians, particularly in the Pentecostal movement, but is considered by many to have not been included in the original Gospel of Mark). ..................................... I don't quite know what you mean about 'a standard of number symbolism'. ? Maybe they were just shitty writers and plagiarized each other - there are countless alternative explanations. Which language is used? I think if you come at it from the perspective that you 'believe' you will tend to find what you are looking for. Ramsey theory - informs that basically if the project - the set/graph/collection of words/whatever is large enough, you'll be guaranteed to find patches of order as large as you want. (ie bible) You might be aware of this site.. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/codes/moby.html ? I'd be more impressed if the bible numerics produced new and current predictions. No credit for picking your own vague collection of thousands of words and claiming 'success' when some of them happen to match past events that have already happened. I'm curious why the revivalists put forward this kind of thing. I'm assuming it would be more popular with the males in the congregation ? - as something to 'worry about' or keep people busy enough with this stuff so they don't THINK about other stuff? I have no idea really.....except to compare this kind of queer maths with the other more horrendous 'theories' the revivalist liked to push....ie. the British Israel 'theory' which I assume has crawled somewhat under the dirty revivalist carpet these days? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_Centres_International The entry makes it sound ever so sqeaky clean? You could say 'speaking in tongues' is used by certain christian as 'proof' - amazing how much 'proof' the faithful really rely on to operate .... (Message edited by snakechic on 04/29/2008 4:26 PM) -------------------------------------------------------------- In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation. -- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
	Welcome to The Collection of Flashlights!Wolf-eyes ,your eyes break the darkness!

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