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Chirpy
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/03/2008 05:31:05)
There are some women who seem confused about their sexuality. Some are natually gay and know it but marry into a heterosexual marriage because convention demands it or used to. However there are other women who deliberately try the Lesbian lifestyle because of previous bad experiences with men rather than trying to sort themselves out and learn to be more assertive and make better choices. Maybe they're bisexual anyway but the Lesbian community is fed up with these pretend Lesbians.
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snakechic
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/03/2008 16:29:16)
Okay... . thanks for clarifying your point Chirpy.
I know exactly what you mean now.
Yep...I worked with a Lesbian Community (women's health) at one point & I have a mate who did just that and I doubt she would be tolerated.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Guest
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/04/2008 17:35:08)
I haven't visited here in awhile. It's good to drop in again. I really enjoyed reading the replies in this thread.
It's hard to choose what the worst lie that I was told was. Like many have already said, I'm tempted to just say "the whole thing". Still, for me, a few of the ideas I was fed impacted me more than others.
1. The idea that God will solve all my problems, and the that I can avoid most confusion, tragedy, or grief if my faith is strong enough. The churches I was involved in were Word of Faith, so in addition to the usual stuff about eternal reward they spent alot of time preaching about how we'd be protected, even pampered in the here and now. The catch was that we had to maintain a strong faith, speak the "word" (repeat or chant scripture), cast out the devil and "crucify our flesh". That last one meant stamping out our human nature. The fact that countless scores of people (even those who followed the rules to the best of their ability) never got their blessing was swept under tha rug.I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
2. The lie that enjoying your mind is a bad thing. I"ve always loved reading and learning about a variety of topics. In the churches I attended, I frequently heard how "intellectualism" was a bad thing, and a stumblingblock to a relationship with Jesus. It was okay to read approved materials, such as Christian spirituality books (and if you were woman, cook books), but overall it was seen as pretty much a waste of time to learn anything other than the "Word". I never did entirely stop reading about things that interested me, but I self-censored alot and felt guilty that whatever I was reading didn't reflect fundamentalist morals or doctrine. In addition, imagination and creativity were not celebrated or encouraged in Christian circles unless they were used to advance the gospel message. Imagination was seen as dangerous and a gateway for satan. I'm still trying to recover from the creative block which was caused by so many years of being afraid of my own mind.
3. That authority was put in place by God and was not to be questioned. I think most of us are all too familiar with this particular load of crap, so I don't even have to elaborate.
Did Jesus fill the void? Yes and No. There were times when I felt comforted by the idea that God/Jesus was there for me, that he heard me, that I was special in his eyes. I felt that he knew how hard i struggled to believe the fundamentalist message, and what a tough time I had at home. I hoped he'd show me favor for pushing my doubts away 10,000 times a day,when others seemed to just coast by more easily.
On the flip side, I never felt I was good enough. I had a nagging feeling that God saw my every flaw, and that not even a Niagara Falls-like shower of the blood of jesus could make me anything more than the sorry little loser I was. After all, God was a pretty tough guy, just look at the Bible. I figured one false step, and I was out of favor. And I knew I'd make a false step. I knew I probably made one every day.
I guess the answer is that I did find comfort in the idea of Jesus sometimes, because it was what I had, and the thought of being fulfilled in any other way didn't occur to me for many years.
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Chirpy
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/05/2008 09:35:38)
The lie that enjoying your mind is a bad thing. I"ve always loved reading and learning about a variety of topics. In the churches I attended, I frequently heard how "intellectualism" was a bad thing, and a stumblingblock to a relationship with Jesus. It was okay to read approved materials, such as Christian spirituality books (and if you were woman, cook books), but overall it was seen as pretty much a waste of time to learn anything other than the "Word". I never did entirely stop reading about things that interested me, but I self-censored alot and felt guilty that whatever I was reading didn't reflect fundamentalist morals or doctrine.
I can understand that. That was the case for me. When I left fundyism at the age of thirty I had so much to catch up with as despite being a bit of a bookworm half of the material I was reading was the Bible and christian books plus a daily newspaper. You get single minded to the point where you appear to be like somebody with Aspergers Syndrome*. I had ten years of movie history to catch up with so I hired a few videos and read books on it. I borrowed Usbourne and Dorling Kindersley books (educational books for children of all ages) from public libraries and read them with fascination as a kind of bluffers guide to everything. It was fun reading about the planet and I took an interest in countries all over the world including geographical features. I would take trips to different towns and visit the attractions there; museums, exhibitions, castles, etc. I wanted to learn a little about everything rather than get too deep in to anything by reading heavy academic tomes. Fundies think that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and on leaving fundyism I was free from that attitude. You're supposed to have specialised talents; not be a Jack of all trades. As a single woman for instant I wasn't supposed to know anything about cooking as I wasn't cooking for anybody else but how else could I feed myself.
* Aspbergers Syndrome is a label given to people who are somewhat introverted and have specialised interests. It is a much misused term and can be used to try and normalise people into being shallow and gregarious. However aspies as they like to call themselves tend not to play power games as fundies do and communicate in a direct and honest way. Also they appreciate and crave solitude and look for validation from the group as fundies do.
I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
I've also come across this attitude in Buddhist groups and recently also with new agers obsessed with astrology who spend a lot of time looking up into the sky and blaming the alignment of the stars and the planets in the solar system for what is happening to them. This kind of fatalism isn't exclusive to fundy christians as it seems part of any religion orginating in the Orient. In the area of psychotherapy and self help we're told that if only we would behave confidently at all times no harm would come to us (other than natural disaster) as people wouldn't try to take us for a ride as we wouldn't attract them to us. But that confidence is false if we don't have the knowledge to back it up. Abusers try to take advantage of all sorts of people. Also it's not what happens to us it's how we deal with it that counts. Bad things happen to good people and also so-called confident people.
(Message edited by Chirpy on 03/05/2008 09:47:47)
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snakechic
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:03/05/2008 17:01:32)
1. The idea that God will solve all my problems, and the that I can avoid most confusion, tragedy, or grief if my faith is strong enough.....I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
2. The lie that enjoying your mind is a bad thing...... but I self-censored alot and felt guilty that whatever I was reading didn't reflect fundamentalist morals or doctrine. In addition, imagination and creativity were not celebrated or encouraged in Christian circles unless they were used to advance the gospel message. Imagination was seen as dangerous and a gateway for satan. I'm still trying to recover from the creative block which was caused by so many years of being afraid of my own mind.
There were times when I felt comforted by the idea that God/Jesus was there for me, that he heard me, that I was special in his eyes. I felt that he knew how hard i struggled to believe the fundamentalist message, and what a tough time I had at home. I hoped he'd show me favor for pushing my doubts away 10,000 times a day,when others seemed to just coast by more easily.
On the flip side, I never felt I was good enough. I had a nagging feeling that God saw my every flaw, and that not even a Niagara Falls-like shower of the blood of jesus could make me anything more than the sorry little loser I was. After all, God was a pretty tough guy, just look at the Bible. I figured one false step, and I was out of favor. And I knew I'd make a false step. I knew I probably made one every day.
I guess the answer is that I did find comfort in the idea of Jesus sometimes, because it was what I had, and the thought of being fulfilled in any other way didn't occur to me for many years.
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Hi guest - chock full answer - great! About point 1 ... sounds like there was a very definite conflict between the old 'faith vs works' dogma at the 'Word of Faith' church. ( a bet each way) Crazy huh! The dogma of 'rewards' - special treatment on earth in my experiences leads to followers believing they are the 'chosen' ones which becomes the external expectation but internally the individual is in conflict & is doubtful. (its like a performance for each other and the real person is kept secret and private from the group) Some individuals are more suited to this lifestyle than others (I think) and coast along. ? And when it all that goes wrong and the followers find themselves in trouble - the 'shit hits the fan' or some minor tribulation - then its their own fault. ? Well yeah - sometimes it is but the whole thing is Crazy......the others tend to look on these 'misfortunes' - 'mistakes' etc....as signs from god -( Punishment/reward). I think this also sets up a system that people compete with each other. Brag to extremes - show off and generally behave like twats. Yes...very immature. There is pure escapism. 2. Imagination. Oh yeah. I remember that one. And dreaming was forbidden! Haha Crazy.! However the SDAist church I recall...the members all enjoyed a good old bible debate and would go on and on ...and on.. Intellect was valued - I recall being encouraged to study medicine, law etc. It was all about 'work' and nothing about pleasure or fun. Enjoyment!? - not godly. Crazy people! So would you say any 'comfort' you felt was overridden by your fear? which you mention more than once... ' being afraid of my own mind' ..'.my fear of not performing ' and being on guard for the 'devil'....'one false step and I was out of favor'. Would you say that it was your own fear that 'sabotaged' your development or stuckiness inside christianity? (not sure how to put it...fear of failure) You say failures were swept 'under the rug'...what kept you silent about those things? You say you 'self censored' reading material etc. was that also from fear? Perhaps not knowing who you were? Anyway.. enjoyed your post. I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
Chirpy said...
I've also come across this attitude in Buddhist groups and recently also with new agers obsessed with astrology who spend a lot of time looking up into the sky and blaming the alignment of the stars and the planets in the solar system for what is happening to them. This kind of fatalism isn't exclusive to fundy christians Yep - its in every kind of religion......including all kinds of christianity (whatever label you want to give it - liberal, moderate, fundy, charismatic, and so on - in all kinds of denominations) Its part of the 'hook'....everyone can have at some point wants/needs for an easy answer and/or a crutch or a solution..some kind of interest that explains the universe - those heavy and often asked questions - 'why am I here' and 'I want to be safe here' and 'how can live' etc..etc. That part of humanness...is not extraordinary at all. Answers? All those things are generated by people - information, academic to the anecdotal , advice, self help advice, including mental health tips, testimonies, moral or ethical - everything! It up to the individual to work out what is suitable for them and what isn't. And consider the rationale for the need to blame the 'product' when it fails to give the 'correct' answer. Its okay to make mistakes and change your mind.........and live without having all your questions answered. Yep...shit happens!
(Message edited by snakechic on 03/05/2008 18:18:33)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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logophile
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/07/2008 22:36:41)
Hi snakechic and Chirpy. I'm "Guest". I didn't bother signing in last visit and idn't even realize til after I'd posted.
To answer snakechics questions.....
Q. So would you say any 'comfort' you felt was overridden by your fear? which you mention more than once... ' being afraid of my own mind' ..'.my fear of not performing ' and being on guard for the 'devil'....'one false step and I was out of favor'.
A. Yes. I felt that god's love was conditional so I only felt a sense of peace when I felt I'd been pretty close to perfect. In church, they spoke of god's love being unconditional, but they spent far more time saying how god was righteous and couldn't stand to look at unrighteousness, would bring vengence on "evil", etc. It was a very punishment oriented mesage. Even if a Christian managed to avoid hell, there were so many things they might suffer here on earth if they didn't lisetn to and follow god's voice. Unfortunately, this made alot of sense to me simply because of my upbringing. I was raised by a parent who spoiled me with lots of material things but abused me emotionally and physically, and who was very volatile when I made any mistake. The fundy word-of-faith god seemed to fit this mold.
Q. You say failures were swept 'under the rug'...what kept you silent about those things? You say you 'self censored' reading material etc. was that also from fear? Perhaps not knowing who you were?
A. It was indeed a whole cycle of fear. I started off fearful cause I was a kid handling one often scary, weird situation (home) and being exposed to another scary, weird situation (church/religion), neither of which I had any control over or ability to escape from at the time. I adapted, as kids will do; saying and doing what I gathered was expected of me in order to survive. Along the line, I suppose a type of brainwashing did occur, because at first I was aware of my skepticism and doubt, but after a few years, I truly started to believe (or tricked myself into thinking I believed). I really did want to please god and not rock the boat. It wasn't until I was in my early 20's that I was able to start uncovering all the crap I had choked down.
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snakechic
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Reply To logophile
(Date Posted:03/09/2008 18:17:25)
Hi snakechic and Chirpy. I'm "Guest". I didn't bother signing in last visit and idn't even realize til after I'd posted.
To answer snakechics questions.....
Q. So would you say any 'comfort' you felt was overridden by your fear? which you mention more than once... ' being afraid of my own mind' ..'.my fear of not performing ' and being on guard for the 'devil'....'one false step and I was out of favor'.
A. Yes. I felt that god's love was conditional so I only felt a sense of peace when I felt I'd been pretty close to perfect. In church, they spoke of god's love being unconditional, but they spent far more time saying how god was righteous and couldn't stand to look at unrighteousness, would bring vengence on "evil", etc. It was a very punishment oriented mesage. Even if a Christian managed to avoid hell, there were so many things they might suffer here on earth if they didn't lisetn to and follow god's voice. Unfortunately, this made alot of sense to me simply because of my upbringing. I was raised by a parent who spoiled me with lots of material things but abused me emotionally and physically, and who was very volatile when I made any mistake. The fundy word-of-faith god seemed to fit this mold.
Q. You say failures were swept 'under the rug'...what kept you silent about those things? You say you 'self censored' reading material etc. was that also from fear? Perhaps not knowing who you were?
A. It was indeed a whole cycle of fear. I started off fearful cause I was a kid handling one often scary, weird situation (home) and being exposed to another scary, weird situation (church/religion), neither of which I had any control over or ability to escape from at the time. I adapted, as kids will do; saying and doing what I gathered was expected of me in order to survive. Along the line, I suppose a type of brainwashing did occur, because at first I was aware of my skepticism and doubt, but after a few years, I truly started to believe (or tricked myself into thinking I believed). I really did want to please god and not rock the boat. It wasn't until I was in my early 20's that I was able to start uncovering all the crap I had choked down.
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Hey Logo - great to see you. I had no idea it was you thou' - the AImoo people have messed up this site pretty well! Thanks so much for your answers too. It puts my own childhood experiences in some kind of perspective...meaning how come I didn't swallow the message in the same way. Basically what strikes me the most in your first answer was the fact that you were 'spoiled' materially. I guess that would set up a lot of confusion for a kid. I didn't have that same kind of experience so it was much easier for me to doubt the 'adults bearing gifts' thing. Yes ...I also saw adults become very volatile (& what I nice way to put it Logo) ...For me it was obvious even at a young age how different the folks were in public and how they acted in the privacy of their own home. Yes..my mother spoke in 'gods voice' often. ! Yep...kids don't have any control over their environment - suffer physical symptoms of major stress/abuse. I was lucky in my old SDAist church in that they didn't have many kids there at the time so I and another little girl were left unattended to goof off and play while the adults washed feet or did whatever it was they did. I learned to goof off and NOT pay attention to a lot of stuff that I thought was horrible or uninteresting - and I left home very young. I'd say the only thing I got out of christianity at the time...was a fear of satan, demons, being possessed, ...evil. I learned that there was no point in trying to please my parents - christianity - they kept changing the rules or making the "yard stick' I was expected to jump.. higher and higher. My sibling had a different personality and learnt how play the system. ? *shrug* ( I'm guessing) Anyway...I looked up Word of Faith. I've never heard of that crowd before but "Pentecosts" are Pentecosts in my book and are a class of their own. I can't begin to imagine the damage that particular dogma has on kids, teenagers and young adults. You know I only had a very brief taste of penties because of that drama with the sister awhile ago but that's enough for me - (not to mention the online chatroom I had a bad times with when I first started researching this topic) I think it certainly makes a difference which denomination the individual was exposed to - not saying they aren't all bad in their own way but only that you can't generalise and think you know everything about 'fundamentalism' or 'conservative christianity'..or whatever thing you want to call it. I think the way in which an individual looses a sense of 'who you are' is a common outcome of a 'born into' experience. I think its great to be able to label those experiences for what they are - abuse. (I think the 'born again' or adult entry (by choice) into christianity is a different kettle of fish...pardon the pun)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Chirpy
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/10/2008 05:20:23)
Reply to Snakechic
I learned that there was no point in trying to please my parents - christianity - they kept changing the rules or making the "yard stick' I was expected to jump.. higher and higher. My sibling had a different personality and learnt how play the system. ? *shrug* ( I'm guessing)
I wish I had sussed that out when I was young. I seemed to be forever trying to chase some elusive ideal and it didn't occur to me that the search was endless until I was around the age of thirty. By then I was burnt out and had stopped bothering with striving or improving myself in anyway unless it was for my personal benefit. It's hard when I get involved in anything to set my own goals and not look around at all the others to see what they are doing and how far their are progressing but I know one thing is for certain that if I meet a hard taskmaster who is never satisfied for a tutor, employer, group organiser, friend or boyfriend I'm out because I know that I wouldn't be able to stand the pressure or find it easy to set my own goals.
When you were goofing off in church services was that actually in the hall where you were worshipping or did you have a chance to run off outside? The problem with being in a church with lots of families is that there is a special program arranged for the children so there's no chance or excuse to goof off.
(Message edited by Chirpy on 03/10/2008 05:22:35)
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snakechic
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
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