There have been heaps of discussion on the topic..here's one of my favorite post to date....
You know something? I am fucking sick and tired of Christians using "hell" as their favorite cattle prod to scare people into buying their "Pascal's Wager-ism". I am tired of Christians claiming that the reason they witness to the "lost", and the reason that they post on this forum, is to "warn" people about "hell." Fuck, I'm tired of Christians just mentioning the word "hell"! And why? Because Christians don't even believe in this "Hell" they promote. They don't! Not one, fucking word.
Bold statement, but can I back it up?
You better fucking well believe I can. Start reading.
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"You are really convinced that you've got all the answers. You've really got yourself tricked into believing that you're 100% right. Well, let me tell you just one thing. Do you consider yourself to be compassionate of other humans? If you're right, as you say you are, and you believe that [sinners burn in hell for eternity for simply rejecting Jesus], then how can you sleep at night? When you speak with me, you are speaking with someone who you believe is walking directly into eternal damnation, into an endless onslaught of horrendous pain which your 'loving' god created, yet you stand by and do nothing.
If you believed one bit that thousands every day were falling into an eternal and unchangeable [and horrendous] fate, you should be running the streets mad with rage at their blindness. That's equivalent to standing on a street corner and watching every person that passes you walk blindly directly into the path of a bus and die, yet you stand idly by and do nothing. You're just twiddling your thumbs, happy in the knowledge that one day that 'walk' signal will shine your way across the road.
Think about it. Imagine the horrors Hell must have in store if the Bible is true. You're just going to allow that to happen and not care about saving anyone but yourself? If you're right then you're an uncaring, unemotional and purely selfish (expletive) that has no right to talk about subjects such as love and caring."
This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to Evangelist Ray Comfort of Living Waters. [This e-mail can be found at
http://www.repentamerica.com/letterfromateist.html]
Words [in brackets] are my addition.
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And then there are these damning words from The Man himself, Robert Ingersoll:
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<!--quotec-->"If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender, it has furrowed the cheeks of the good. This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."
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Next, years ago I, the Grinch, read a story related by minister Chuck Swindoll, I believe it was in the pages of his book The Grace Awakening. (Or was it in Simple Faith? Well, either way, Swindoll wrote it. Who knows whether or not this is a True tale of woe? We all know how much Christians enjoy creating tales of inspiration to motivate their followers.)
He re-tells the story of a felon convicted of murder and who was on death row in prison. On the day of his execution, the priest visited the felon to administer Last Rites. On the way to the execution chamber, the priest dispassionately and lazily spoke of sin, forgiveness and the fires of eternal damnation. The condemned prisoner became quite offended at the priest's cavalier attitude and took umbrage with him. He was angry that the priest seemed to care so little for such a horrible fate that allegedly awaited the condemned.
The criminal upbraided the priest sharply saying that if he, the criminal, believed in such a horrible destination as hell awaited mankind, then he would not sleep for proclaiming a warning. The criminal said that were it him who claimed to believe such a thing as hell, then he would cross miles of broken glass on his hands and knees to deliver this message and warn the lost away from this doom!
And then finally, we have the sundry posts and dodges from the assorted Christians we've gotten on this very forum. Not fucking ONE of them believes in a REAL, LITERAL HELL! Not one. They ALL have their OWN, PERSONAL and LESS OFFENSIVE IDEA of "hell". ("Separation from god", "loneliness", or a "burning thirst", as Billy Graham calls it.) Something that they can live with and still believe themselves to be decent human beings.
They offer analogies about "warning people about to go over waterfalls", and "saving someone from a burning building", however THOSE analogies fall flat on their faces. Whereas the "fire" and "waterfall" are REAL and can be verified as a legitimate THREAT to life and limb, the Christian notion of "hell" is a mere fabrication. Verified by the fact that Christian efforts to "save" anyone from this "danger" is so fucking cavalier! When is the last time anyone saw a casual fire fighter or lifeguard, just TALKING about saving a life in peril? Or do they get busy and dive headlong into danger?
So THIS is why I say that Christians themselves, (no matter WHAT they profess in their catechisms, or statements of faith, or Apostle's Creeds) DO NOT believe in the doctrine of Hell! They don't believe a word of it. The very idea of the Bible Hell that JESUS preached is offensive, disturbing and monstrous. And the idea that a "loving God" could eternally damn humanity to this fate is anathema to Christians. They recoil at this accusation against their god. And with good reason.
How could anyone, who believes in Eternal TORMENT for family, friends, neighbors and even strangers, possibly sleep knowing this horror awaits them? And how could you worship the "God" that created "hell"? Anyone who ACTUALLY believed in a "lake of burning fire", where family and friends go to be punished for eternity, would not stop to sleep or eat. They would be incensed and mad with fasting, prayer and preaching warnings to the lost. AT ANY COST TO THEMSELVES!
They'd NEVER stop warning people. They wouldn't be wasting time working for a paycheck. Got more important work to do! It's sack cloth and ashes time! They wouldn't be sitting at home eating a sumptuous meal and watching "Must See TV", while thousands each MINUTE died and were being sent to Hell! They wouldn't take vacations, and instead they'd be on street corners, in malls and in market places wailing in lament for the lost souls around and about them. They wouldn't be wasting time arguing fruitlessly the finer points of church doctrine with APOSTATES on internet forums, who have already rejected the message. (Hello all!) They'd be pestering neighbors, family and friends morning, noon, and night, not caring if they believed them to be mad. They'd suffer every indignity, every beating, every sling and arrow, every depravation of the body and mind, every humiliating treatment of their person including imprisonment or institutionalization, all for the opportunity to warn the lost of the perils of Hell Fire!
And they'd "count it all joy", as did the "Apostle Paul."
But note for the record that NO CHRISTIAN IS DOING THIS! NOT ONE.
Oh sure, we've got the Sunday Morning sermons, delivered to PEW SITTERS who have already heard the message. There are even your "weekend warrior" Christians who make momentary nuisances of themselves in parks and on street corners as they get into fights with on-lookers and the cops. Even PAID evangelists and missionaries who go forth and "preach the gospel".
But what REALLY are they preaching? (IF they preach at all.) A gospel of feel-goodism and good works and faithful tithing/obedience to the church. Or they spew vitriol and venom delivered against homosexuals and atheists, because "God Hates Sinners!" Christians typically content themselves with passing out a few Bibles, pamphlets, maybe a hot meal or two, some clothes and some pithy catch-phrases designed to help one (intimidate one) to live a "better life for Christ". Thus making our society a better, safer "Christian" nation.
But...where is the PANIC and URGENCY of these stalwart evangelists as they warn about the fires of Hell?
It's not there. And why not? Because THEY don't believe in Hell (i.e. the "Lake of Burning Fire") anymore than I do. Why panic and warn about something that you KNOW doesn't exist? Why waste time wearing yourself to the bone about some penalty that you KNOW is not there, when there is living to be done here on Earth?
Much better to run the church like the business enterprise that it is. Build bigger church buildings, and sell Christian products to other gullible Christians, to stimulate the Christian economy. Gotta make sure all the Christian artistes receive their "Dove Awards" and the recognition for being the Top Christian Act of the Year. Then there is the important work of petitioning Congress to get prayer and the Ten Commandments back in schools, so Christian "values" can be taught to the chillin' of America. And for God's sake let's make sure that homosexuals don't ruin the institution of marriage! When Christ returns we sure as fuck don't want him seeing THAT perversity of Adam and Steve kissing!
CHRISTIANS DON'T BELIEVE IN HELL! If they did they'd be frantically warning against it and not be wasting time with anything else.
And since I'm on a roll, let me say that Christians don't "believe" in anything they say. For IF they did, the entire WORLD would see a marked difference in the way they behave and live. THIS WORLD and all that it offers would hold NO interest. They'd sell all they have, give it to the poor, go into the world and preach. But they don't do ANY of this. And why not?
Christians are "storing up treasures here on earth" as fast as these treasures can be created. They live in and enjoy this world. Christians are even AFRAID to leave this world! Watch as the Christians pray against sickness, disease, accidental injury, LOSS OF PROPERTY and POSITION, and even against DEATH. Despite all of their vainglorious boastings of being "blessed children of God", and "looking forward to meeting Him face-to-face", Christians LOVE this world. They cling tenaciously to it, and they are TERRIFIED of dying. Terrified of LOSING something precious...their LIFE in THIS world.
The ONLY Christians who live in poverty are the ones who are FORCED into it by their circumstances. You will NEVER see any of today's affluent church-goers sell all of their possessions and take up the life of poor, spirit-filled believers, suffering for the "cross of Christ." Warning the "lost and dying" about "Judgment Day." Not gonna happen.
But...why should any of this be? Why this marked discrepancy between what Christians SAY and what they DO? Between what the Bible teaches and what Christians "believe"? Most assuredly it's because they don't believe the horse shit they're shoveling either! Because they don't believe a fucking WORD of it. Not one word. They just like to pretend that they do. It makes them look good when they're puffing themselves up in church circles. Why actually LIVE, sacrifice and DIE for "Christ", when you can just TALK about doing it? Or better yet, just talk about some OTHER Christians who allegedly did it somewhere else, at some other time. "What an inspiration St. Paul or Justin Martyr are! Aren't THEY grand examples of faith-filled men?"
Right...and just what have YOU done for Christ lately? Besides wasting time debating unbelievers on Ex-Christian.Net, that is.
"Who would die for a lie?" HAH! The better question is, "Who would LIVE for a lie?" Apparently not too fucking many.
<!--coloro:#33CC00--><!--/coloro-->"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane.".....Robert Ingersoll
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http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=10491
