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Jezebel Rising
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(Date Posted:05/22/2007 00:39:51)
I'm astounded at her crassness, especially since your brother-in-law died by his own hand. And she continues to express contempt for him through her conduct towards your wife and you.
How she's only giving your wife thsoe items on condition of (exorbiant) payment is telling of her finaincal situation. Maybe ther was a reason that she didn't disclose her finances to your brother-in-law.
My sympathies and lots of hugs for you and your family.
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"I"m not a witch, but I wish I was. If I live I"d be a witch now after what they have done. I"ll burn their crops and kill their animals. I"ll stir up such storms. I"ll scatter their ships across the world. If I could meet with the devil right now, I would give him anything for power, for he is the only way to power for women in this world. I shouldn"t have been afraid of Ellen, I should have learnt. Oh, if I only had magic, I"d make them feel it."
Caryl Churchill, "Vinegar Tom"
"It might be the greatest thing ever invented, but if it"s invented, then it"s not worth dying for."
Taj Bachmann, former missionary
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:05/22/2007 03:03:23)
Grey
Without asking my wife or her two remaining siblings or her father "Jane" is throwing all of Brad's things out. If it wasn't for my wife calling "Jane" and telling her that she wanted some personal effects of her brother we would of never known until it was too late.
She is The WIfe. ....................so why does she have to ask the inlaw family for 'permission' to sell whatever she wants? Its her stuff. Her 'right' to do what she wants.
Sounds like your side didn't 'like' or approve of her or their relationship since the beginning. That's too bad....but really not surprising how things are turning out now.
Sorry to read it thou....................its only 'stuff'? People are more important aren't they.?
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Grayfeather
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3# |
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(Date Posted:05/22/2007 17:00:04)
Reply to: Snakechic
"She is the Wife..."
Hi Snakey! Yes she is the wife but common courtsey and sensitivity needed to be applied here. No she does not have to ask for "permission" to sell his things, but to ask if they might want some of his things before she sells them is more of the point. Since both her and her husband held the weight of being so guilty of the breakdown of communication within their marrige she figuratively pulled the same trigger.
What it was all about was finances. It was all fixable. He could of filed for bankruptcy but was too proud to tell her that he was broke and lived way over his means. He was not honest. He told her that he was not in debt when in fact he was. He had all of the bills sent to his job. She in all of this time never questioned, "Where are all of the bills? You say that you are not in debt but why do you not want to buy a home? Can you not afford it?" She herslf said that she did not question these things. I thought that was very strange. She in front of my wife threw out his pictures, in the garbage. With my wife standing there did not even ask her if she had wanted he brother's pictures, she just threw them away, now that is wrong, no matter what kind of hate she had for him killing himself she could of done that later, not in front of his sister. That is an affront to the whole family. That was inexcusable.
As much as I had hated my first wife for killing herslf I had saved some of her things for her daughter that she had given up for adoption that I had never met. I am glad that I did for I had met her daughter for the first time in thirty years last year. She was stunned that I had saved these things and that I had given her her mother's things. I told her that she was entitled to them. My present wife was not happy that I had saved these things and I could have thrown these them away but I hoped that someday I would meet my first wife's daughter and I wanted her to have something of her mother's.
My first wife's mother had asked me for her daughter's clothes in which I had given them to her. she had asked me before I had a chance to ask her. She had come over after the funeral and had gotten them for she had lived far away and I would not have been able to send them for quite some time. This is why I was quite angry at my former sister-in-law because I saw an insensitivity that bothered me ver very much. She may have been the wife but she did not need to be that insencitive which makes me believe that her insencitivity is covering up her guilt in her part of what had happened.
Gray
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:05/23/2007 04:31:43)
Grey....its really none of my business how you deal with your family issues...but seeing as thou' you posted this vent I have the choice to respond or not. I don't want to hurt your feelings. I don't see it the same way as you do. Its a topic close to me...'family' 
Here's my take on it...
....this is not about finances. There is a bigger issue behind all of the family dynamics - 2 families squabbling. This is also a way to avoid the work of grieving for the loss of a husband, father, uncle, brother, bother in-law, etc. and what that means to each person. Its quite 'normal' to go through a phase of idealising the person who dies...almost like martyrdom or putting them on a pedestal. But not everyone who's involved with the person who kills themselves will feel the same way as you have described ..."where Pharoah Sethi had the name of Moses eradicated from every pillar and stone through Egypt"
& perhaps your own input of believing that you have a right to judge another's marriage ( I don't see anything 'wrong' with having joint finances) - & perhaps act as your wife's protector or ...generally as the moral guide in the whole family. - both of them ? ? ?................to me, meddling in anyone's marriage causes problems.!
I've seen the same thing heaps of times.....the inlaws Vs. the family - meddling in times of divorce & breakdown of relationship - which btw..takes 2 to achieve. Basically what you write is blaming your former sister inlaw for her husbands decision to end his own life.
What it was all about was finances................................Since both her and her husband held the weight of being so guilty of the breakdown of communication within their marrige she figuratively pulled the same trigger.
That is not true...however much you may want it to be. No one 'made' him act this way....no one can stop that act from not being true now.. Its fact and you can't change it now no matter how hard you try. Break down of communication in a relationship - does NOT necessarily result in a person killing themselves.
The only person responsible for your bother inlaws death is your botherinlaw. Its okay to be angry about that...and at him directly.
IMO ...your mistake is thinking other's - in this case your sister inlaw....thinks exactly like you do & will behave exactly the same way.. That is not true...everyone has their own thoughts,...values about each situation in life that comes their way... - In other words - just because you saved your first wife's stuff doesnt mean everyone must do the same thing as you did. This is not your first wife...this is your bother inlaw.
I also don't agree with your assessment of your former sister inlaws actions....that her "guilt' is proved by her actions...which apparently you find as being 'insensitive'...
I can only comment on what is here........you don't like the woman ...Fair enough.!!
Interesting how you call her 'former' sister inlaw. ? Is she no longer part of the family - but that doesnt mean the "blood" relations have more 'right' to say what they like about what she (the widow) does now....or then. Its her life..her business.
i also think its a little insensitive to judge her right now - her anger at her husbands betrayal & his choice of killing himself violently might very well take her a very long time to work though - doubling hard when kids are involved...................- anger...as expressed by throwing away the photos of the husband/father are a 'normal' reaction imo. & maybe she did it in front of your wife for a reason. Maybe she and the thirteen year old daughter feel the 'judgement' of them - by your family....which you have described in this vent. Maybe they don't like your family either....?
I hope you can see your way clear a bit after reading my reply......................? but if you don't that's cool...feel free to disregard my reply.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Grayfeather
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5# |
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(Date Posted:05/23/2007 04:59:40)
Reply to: Snakechic
I'm not hurt, matter of fact I have come to respect your posts and replies. I love your thoughts and input. I need to reread and will reply as soon as I can.
Gray
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snakechic
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6# |
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(Date Posted:05/23/2007 14:09:46)
I'm very glad you are going to think on what I wrote. They are just my opinions however....you & your families are important here as well as all your feelings - no matter what they are.
Ages ago..years...when I first lobbed on this site, very confused and still hurting about the loss of my family - the very close sibling relationship & her family to a pentecostal sect ........I received the best bit of feedback to one of my posts from Lybra. I'll not forget how it affected me at the time. I was a little shocked at first...stepped back and thought about what she had written. It went something like....'just because they are your family, doesn't mean you have to have a close, loving relationship with them'....'forget them...find a new family'... I'm not sure if I'm quoting her exactly but I got it.! I still raved on...expressed my feelings but I stopped having such a heavy, full on expectation of it. I feel free! It also surprised me no end ...I'm supposed to be the 'expert' in families.. Huh!
Apart from that stuff....I've had some experience personally in my family too. A few stories as a matter of fact...but one that strikes me ...is when both my parents had died. My Auntie hadn't said anything up until my mother died...(they didn't get along. - my dad was her brother)...anyway...my parents were quite well off....and when my Auntie asked me for money - I was a little shocked but still gave her a bit but only once. We're not very close now - and now I rarely contact her, nor she me. The relationship between my parents and her hasn't really allowed it. .........I had nothing to do with their arguments.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Grayfeather
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(Date Posted:05/25/2007 06:10:15)
Reply to: Snakechic
Snakey I think this will be the one thing that we will spar over and over on for I see and understand your opinion and viewpoints but I do not agree will most of them as you do not agree with most of my venting statements. I vented because I just wanted to get it off of my chest.
Since our viewpoints opinions (that being everyone in general) come from how life has treated us we see things differently.
I am not really sure if I liked or disliked my sister-in-law (and yes former was a poor choice of a word). I was on the fence. But even after 20 years of being married into my wife's family I was on the fence for a very long time. It was because of my home life, trust was a hard thing to come by and it took me years to trust Mom and Dad and I had told them so, so that they might understand why I was so aloof with them most of the time. It was in the last couple of years and especially in Mom's passing that i had realized that I am family. They had nurtured me with a love that I had never known as far as a family is concerned. I was the closest to the brother-in-law who committed suicide, still aloof but yet I was closer to him than I was the rest of the family so that might be where my anger is coming from. But in my eyes and even seeing my share of family death I still felt and feel that my sister-in-law's insensitivity and coldness was inexcuasble. But again that is how I feel and my opinion.
Snakey like I had said before I respect your posts and replies, your thoughts and inputs. Our difference of opinions will not make me waiver on that. I have learned a lot from you and I know that I wll continue to do so.
Grayfeather
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The Cuteness
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(Date Posted:05/27/2007 00:27:16)
Reply to : Grayfeather
Hi Grayfeather,
I have been thinking about this post for a week now. It seemed to me to be one of those tricky situations, and I wasn't sure what I thought about it. I have an opinion now - if you care to hear it.
I have come to the conclusion that there is no excuse for throwing out or selling a persons possessions in this way. I understand that your sister-in-law may be hurting a lot but she doesn't have the moral right to get rid of your brother-in-law's stuff without consulting his family. Especially given the tragic circumstances surrounding his death. Unfortunately, as the wife, she does have the legal right to do this, as snakechic pointed out.
I'm not surprised you are very angry about it. She is being very selfish and inconsiderate. Her actions are making your pain worse, and that's not OK. It's worse for you because you went out of your way to keep the possessions of your first wife to pass on to her blood - it was the obvious thing to do - so you can't understand why your sister-in-law wouldn't do the same.
Some people are just not sentimental at all. Throwing out your brother-in-law's possessions doesn't mean that his wife didn't love him. Perhaps she is in so much pain she can't bear any reminders of him and will later regret her actions. Or perhaps she believes (as I do) that possessions are just possessions and you don't need objects to remember someone, you carry them in your heart.
Maybe she does feel terribly guilty. Most people would do. But just because she feels guilty it doesn't mean she is guilty. I don't know what her marriage was like, and neither do you really. What works for one couple does not work for another. My ex-boss and her husband lived in separate cities - they only saw each other at weekends. They were very much in love. My boyfriend and I don't always sleep in the same bed (he is a very light sleeper and I'm a heavy breather) - most people would find that odd but we are very much in love. It's no ones business but theirs what their financial situation was. It's not really relevant.
I'm sorry that your wife was left in tears at the garage sale. Your sister-in-laws actions there are inexcusable. She is behaving as if she is the only one affected and that is not the case. She has no moral right to do as she pleases without consulting those who loved your brother-in-law. Even if you hate and detest someone, in a situation such as a funeral you should put that aside and do the right thing (not that I am suggesting she feels that way about your wife, just that it shouldn't matter even if she did).
Please don't torture yourself with the reasons why your brother-in-law took his own life, and who was to blame. I don't think it'll do any good. And please don't read too much into your sister-in-law's actions. She may be unsentimental and selfish, but it doesn't mean she didn't love him. The truth is you will never really know the full story.
The only other thing I would add is that it's OK if you don't like her. It doesn't mean anything about your brother-in-law or his memory. How you feel about his widow is totally separate. Maybe you will feel differently about her when your feelings are less raw, or maybe not. Either way it's OK.
This is just what I think. I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts. I guess they're not very helpful. It must be hard for you - you must just want to protect your wife from anything else. Crap though it sounds, I'm sure you will both be fine.
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Marquis de Sade (Quills): Are your convictions so fragile they cannot stand in opposition to mine? Is your god so flimsy, so weak? For shame.
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