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1# |
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:07/31/2008 06:06:54)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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snakechic
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2# |
Rank:none
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Posts:3524
Registered:
11/02/2004
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/07/2008 18:20:21)
spiritual problems?
would that also include bigotry against other religious denominations?
eh..
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Guest
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/08/2008 03:09:32)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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logophile
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4# |
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08/15/2005
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/11/2008 11:21:33)
Guest,
How is the predominant western worldview anti-religious? In America (and to a slightly lesser exetent in Canada)you can't go anywhere or turn on a TV without seeing something of a religious nature. 82 % of people in the US believe in a god...I'm not sure what the stats are in Europe, maybe someone else can help me out there. You yourself stated that "most social help organizations are rooted in faith", and I beleive you're somewhat correct on that one. It's also far easier to find a priest,rabbi,etc to perform a wedding or funeral than it is to find any kind of secular celebrant. All in all, among everyday working people, being a "beleiver" is very socially acceptable, being a skeptic is not cool. Trust me I know, I've been on both sides of the coin and I've seen how folks react.
Long story short, I don't see much anti-religious sentiment going on in my part of the Western World, unless the religion happens to be Islam. Anything that falls under the umbrella of Christian (or even of "spirituality") tends to get all kinds of acknowledgement and respect, whether it deserves it or not.
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Guest
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5# |
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/11/2008 13:17:36)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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logophile
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6# |
Rank:none
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Posts:93
Registered:
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/12/2008 06:52:41)
I'm not sure where you're getting your statistics. According to religioustolerance.org, around 74% of people in England and Wales identified themselves as Christian (stats from 2004). I've seen other reports that claimed it was only about half that number, but nothing as low as 3%. I understand that Europe is far more secular than North America, but fifteen hundred or so years of religious influence isn't going to evaporate overnight.
If you're from the UK, you are most likely watching different TV shows than I am here in North America, but I can tell you that here, most family-oriented shows portray religion (almost always Christianity) in a positive way. There aren't any openly atheist lead characters on any show here (except for the title character on "House", who's written as an amoral, miserable SOB)
It's very cool for young people to claim they love Jesus, or at the very least to say they beleive in God. I read that high school students today hold more conservative social ideas than those of say, 20 or 30 years ago. Most schools allow students to have a Bible study club or Christian club of some kind."Spirituality", much like "creativity" is a must have trait these days, it seems. Someone can't even be considered for the presidency unless he comes clean about what his religion is (and he better damn well have one, and it better feature Jesus).
You and I must be looking at a whole different internet. I've found that the internet has many welcoming places for Christians. There are chatrooms, message boards, dating sites, movie reviews, bookstores,bible study guides...everything you can imagine all geared to Christians. From my experience it's far easier to stumble upon Christian material than non-theist information. When I first walked away, I had to go about looking for ex-Christian and atheist type of information (it wasn't hard to find once I looked, but I did have to make the effort) whereas the Christian material was abundant and spammed into my inbox several times a week.
I'm not saying the world is not becoming increasingly secular. I'm just pointing out that religion still has a place, and that with all the technology available to us that connects us to others, we can all find our niche, and other people, products, and information that share our worldview..... Or we can purposely visit sites that hold the opposite worldview and badger people for fun.
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Guest
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/12/2008 08:38:58)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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logophile
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8# |
Rank:none
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Posts:93
Registered:
08/15/2005
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/12/2008 10:52:26)
Honestly, Guest, I've never searched for anti-Christian cartoons on YouTube, so I don't know exactly what's out there. Send me a link. I don't think it's right to make nasty cartoons about people's religion, but I do think it's fine to lampoon organizations that are hypocritical and opressive. Either way, it's freedom of speech and it's gonna be out there. Where are these cartoons coming from? Who's putting them on there? If atheists or just smartassed people are putting them up there, then it's up to Chrsitians to come up with good responses. You can find the Sunday sermon from any church you want on You Tube, you can find every joe schmo's armchair interpretation of the Bible,you can find footage of worship music and creation science lectures. Christians ARE on YouTube. If they want to respond to the nasty cartoons, then it would be up to them.
I think you and I coming from two different perspectives partly due to our geographical locations. You're in the UK, and I'm in North America. What I see happening here is very different from what you see happening there. It's a different culture. There's also no way I can accurately refute your point of view of UK religious acceptance or lack thereof because I don't live in the UK and never have. I do have to express my extreme sketpicism about your statement concerning 40% of young people in 6th form being homosexual. I'm not sure how old kids in 6th form are (we go by grades here and in 6th grade kids are around 11 years old) but whatever the age, it seems impossible that that high a percentage are identifying as gay. In the US there have always told the "british queer" jokes, but 40% seems just plain ridiculous. I'll have to look that one up, but wow. Anyway, I'm not sure what homosexuality has to do with our conversation about religion anyway. You claim not to be a fundamentalist, so why care who is gay?
Let me ask you this, though...what place do you think faith should have in your country? Why do you think religion is losing it's hold where you live? What would you like to see changed?
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Guest
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/12/2008 11:30:40)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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Guest
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10# |
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/12/2008 11:31:38)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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logophile
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11# |
Rank:none
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Posts:93
Registered:
08/15/2005
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RE:Between a rock and a hard place
(Date Posted:08/12/2008 13:26:39)
That cartoon isn't all that creative or funny as far as I'm concerned, but to each his own. You must admit though, that what the big mean cloud is saying IS what Christianity teaches, basically. Am I wrong? That is the traditional Christian teaching, and I should know because I lived with it and heard the message again and again and again.
You say that religion isn't good, but faith is. I don't know about that. I personally feel that faith in something that dosen't exist is not a very good idea. Especially when you start trusting in god that things will happen a certain way, and then they don't. That's false hope, and in my opinion it sucks. It may help people feel better for awhile, but drugs and drink do that too. Should people just indulge in those as well?
Having said that, I agree that faith (if you have it) should only be about faith; religion (in the sense of a large,controlling governing body) would be better left out of it. However, it's too late for that. Religion is part of humanity and isn't going away. It's shaped every culture there is. It's turned people against one another, brought people together, built kingdoms, you name it. It can't be erased. People want and need ritual; always have and probably always will, and this holds especially true for anything regarding worship of a deity.
But religion is slowly losing hold on some levels, and strangely that makes you upset. Perhaps it should make you hopeful. Religion and faith are so tangled right now they can't be separated in most people's minds. Maybe people need to let go of religion... mock it, quit fearing it, tear it down before they can start imagining a faith/spirituality apart from it. I know people who have done that. Maybe all this anti-Chrsitianty really is anti-religion and not necessarily anti-faith. More and more people are open to what they call "spirituality" these days.
I do have to ask you what is the nature of faith? I mean, isn't it a thing you either have or don't? Someone can't be taught faith...you either beleive something or you don't.
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