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snakechic
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(Date Posted:10/16/2007 02:42:55)
Reply to : ridingawave
Hello,I came across this place after poking around this type of subject matter for the past year or so.I'm not sure if I ever was a beleiver.
Hi....good to meet you! 
I can relate to a fair bit of your intro........yeah ...the bit about 'authority issues'........Good on you Mate!! Well done - I think that a positive & something to pass onto your kids!!! I think that's where I also...as a kid didn't swallow the story hook, line and sinker.....& until I made some more recent discoveries..I didn't really "know" that folks really take all that bible stuff literally either.. I saw a lot of hypocrisy - kids see all that!.............yep.. Its so silly when you think about the 'talking snake'..etc...Everything!
Anyway....you sound very tenacious which I also can relate to - someone who doesn't easily give up..!............Asking questions is great & discovering for yourself!
Yeah. 'religion'..amazing stuff to think about......I took it all pretty much for granted, that I was 'out'... until it bit me on the arse a few years ago.
Glad you joined up....Enjoy waff.!
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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ridingawave
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 23:10:43)
Reply to : snakechic
Reply to : ridingawaveHello,I came across this place after poking around this type of subject matter for the past year or so.I'm not sure if I ever was a beleiver.Hi....good to meet you!I can relate to a fair bit of your intro........yeah ...the bit about 'authority issues'........Good on you Mate!! -I think thats a big positive & something to pass onto your kids!!! I think that's where I also...as a kid didn't swallow the story hook, line and sinker.....& until I made some more recent discoveries..I didn't really "know" that folks really take all that bible stuff literally either.. I saw a lot of hypocrisy - kids see all that!.............yep..&n
Thanks for the Welcome Snake,
I'm stoked to be here. I'll probally just read around and get the feel of the place for a while, be a taker rather than a giver as I try to figure out if I have anything to add.
It is interesting that you saw the Authority Issues as an asset. I never really thought about it that way, because it was not seen that way in regard to Religion and many other aspects of life. I always looked @ new rules as an oppertunity to find new loopholes, and loophole are just oppertunties that are not apparent to everyone. One thing that is interesting about loophole is that they are of no value if they are apparent or the rules that created them are removed. If everyone sees them then there is not oppertunity and if the rule is lifted the oppertunity goes away.
Another thing that is interesting about that thought, and it has alot of relavence to where I am now with respect to god and relgion, is that I really feel like relgion is good for some people, be it true or not. I, as probally everybody here have, notice that new found relgion has had positive effects on drug addicts and the rehablitation of some career criminals. It seems to give some hope to some people that are in hopeless situations. It is like it is an easy superfical fix, and much of the population only want this. It's problem has more to do with the need of it's adhereants needing to convert others to their brand of belief to feel validated. But I'm sure that all of this is dicussed w/in the forums somwhere.
Anyhow I'm stoked to be here, and thanks for the welcome Snake
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:10/19/2007 05:26:40)
Reply to : ridingawave
It is interesting that you saw the Authority Issues as an asset. I never really thought about it that way, because it was not seen that way in regard to Religion and many other aspects of life. I always looked @ new rules as an oppertunity to find new loopholes
You're very welcome....
I think we are basically on the same wave length regarding the issues of authority.....but to make myself a little clearer..I mean that its a good thing to NOT immediately obey authority...and perhaps look at 'authority' in a different way entirely:- as something to question, critically examine and when necessary disregard as being 'authorities' at all. ie. religious leaders, parents, rules/guidelines..written or otherwise..etc etc etc.... I basically think 'authority' structures make people behave with some 'knee jerk' reaction and stops many people thinking for themselves.....Its like a habit? Hope that makes it clearer.. 
Yeah....Enjoy this chatroom!!!!
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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redzed
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 02:00:41)
Reply to : ridingawave
Hi , I relate to your expereinces in realising that the bible need not be taken seriously and like you, Age of Reason was a major affirmation of that feeling. Taking the bible stories as metaphors, Jesus teachings can be seen as representative of the need to question authority and, the stories of the OT could exemplify the difference between living by 'the law' or living by 'love'. Welcome
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Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe" a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us."
Namaste
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ridingawave
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(Date Posted:10/21/2007 19:18:18)
Hello Red it is a pleasure to meet you,
Hello Snake thanks for the follow up,
I'm think that I understood what you ment. I always regulated my behavior from within and just knew weather I was doing right or wrong. The formalization of rules never is able to cover all situations, so It has always put the whole rule book in question. I think that Ispent a long portion of my life really believing that everyone knew the rule book was flawed and that it was only a guide. That every thing had to be looked @ on a case by case basis. This personal outlook only really started to crumble in my twenties when the judge threaten to put me in jail for argueing with him. I had been caught driving without an insurance card, but had insurance in force. He ordered me to pay a fine that was very stiff for me at the time, I was a poor college student, and my 'crime" was completely victimless. I think that as I was threated with jail for this offense, I realized that my worldveiw was not really compatable with how the world works. I realized that all of these flawed edicts are handed down basicly because everyone cannot trust anyone to use their own minds and judgments.
If, as Red said, that the bible is mined for the good things that it has to convey, it could be useful, but as Thomas Paine said, it doesn't contain any more goodness or morality than the averge other book on the subject of goodness or morality. I really wish I could understand why most people, it seems, do not share this outlook. It seems that most people really want everything spelled out for them very perscriptively. And this just does not work, there are too many "what if's"
I did not mean to scare you, Snake with the loophole discussion. I just figured if I was gonna be held to absolute obiedance to the technicalities of the rule book, I'd operate on the technicalities level also. I am a very loving and moral person, Everyone that I know would think that, I think.
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:10/22/2007 03:30:34)
Reply to : ridingawave
I realized that all of these flawed edicts are handed down basicly because everyone cannot trust anyone to use their own minds and judgments.
If, as Red said, that the bible is mined for the good things that it has to convey, it could be useful, but as Thomas Paine said, it doesn't contain any more goodness or morality than the averge other book on the subject of goodness or morality. I really wish I could understand why most people, it seems, do not share this outlook. It seems that most people really want everything spelled out for them very perscriptively. And this just does not work, there are too many "what if's"
I did not mean to scare you, Snake with the loophole discussion. I just figured if I was gonna be held to absolute obiedance to the technicalities of the rule book, I'd operate on the technicalities level also. I am a very loving and moral person, Everyone that I know would think that, I think.
Yeah....I see what you mean regarding your example of the traffic law violation...........Interesting to read your point of view. . I think to be threatened with jail just because you argued with the judge - is about the authority figure - the position of power and trying to maintain that. Obviously the judge was concerned about making you pay the fine as well as you 'respecting' his position - that's how I think the legal system works. $$$......ie. If you had the means to pay for legal representation in your case...the judge may have treated you & your case differently? Who knows!
Yeah...ThomasPaine says something that is basic commonsense.....the bible doesn't contain anymore 'goodness' than any other book. And as a book it fails on many, many levels. I don't believe the book is inspired by anything divine or supernatural...or any of those outlandish claims. As a rule book ..its waaay out of date and imo...quite barbaric & contradictory.
Nah....Ring...you didn't scare me. Loopholes - that is exactly what the legal profession relies on to justify their existence as a profession! .......... I know what you mean.......I think its probably a fairly good tactic to use if you are in the environment in which you live in. Me...I'm probably more bombastic and at this stage of my life..would need to say my piece and disregard the 'rule book' stuff altogether. I don't need to comply..or look like I comply with any kind of religiosity....especially their 'rules'. .........I have in the past sought legal advice about the 'loopholes'...
In your previous post you said...
Another thing that is interesting about that thought, and it has alot of relavence to where I am now with respect to god and relgion, is that I really feel like relgion is good for some people, be it true or not. I, as probally everybody here have, notice that new found relgion has had positive effects on drug addicts and the rehablitation of some career criminals. It seems to give some hope to some people that are in hopeless situations. It is like it is an easy superfical fix, and much of the population only want this. It's problem has more to do with the need of it's adhereants needing to convert others to their brand of belief to feel validated. But I'm sure that all of this is dicussed w/in the forums somwhere.
I think its personal choice & subjective how the person feels about their 'religion'. But...I'm pretty sure its inconsistent - in other words ...change and fluctuation is inevitable. People go through a lot of it - face many doubts and inner turmoil, ...and put in a lot of effort to maintain their 'faith'................to me...it looks like hard work.! To keep down the problems and all the questions and keep up appearances. etc.. etc... So yeah..ya would need a fair bit of 'validating'...to get though it all.
Yes.....for a long time, the evangelicals - the believers.....have been busting their guts to get into the jail system and convert the 'criminal'....or take advantage of the very vulnerable person in times of crisis..ie. hit rock bottom with an addiction or personal /emotional problems. Unfortunately ..the 'support' offered is self serving to the religion - praying, working for the church, etc. etc.... If the individual happens to fail..or fall off the course...or behave in anyway that is against the status quo...I'd say with a fair bit of certainty....that the individual is held responsible - blamed. I also don't agree with christian based therapy's....including AA. I've had first hand experiences with the method of christian 'support'..or family ties used to convert and control. I'm also not real keen on the way people in dire circumstances are treated as 'charity' cases..or put up as 'advertising' how well their church works.
Isn't that one of the main underlying issues of 'authority'....to control & change behaviour/beliefs etc. I see 'believer's' take on some kind of external authority just because they claim to 'feel' god. You know...all that speaking on behalf of god. Knowing what god wants in any given moment.....the 'pastor' leading/feeding people with his interpretations or using emotional means to try and cause people to feel all kinds of stuff... and to discipline and teach. This is where I pause......the so called authority of the religious leader/ pastor. I think its given to them waaaay too easily, slapped on at the end of their bible training or when Papa dies and leaves them the family church business...... ...... For example...its seem so 'natural' to trust the person in this kind of position.....that parents of young children and others...fail to act in accordance to their personal responsibility. How can I put it...its as if.....upon entering a congregation, adults give up being adults. I'm talking about all the abuse..the advantages taken by people in positions of authority to push their 'cause'.........................and yeah to feel validated and/or powerful.?
That was my little rave on .... ... feel free to do like wise...
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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ridingawave
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(Date Posted:10/23/2007 00:48:07)
Reply to : snakechic
...speaking on behalf of their god
Maybe you are right. I was gonna tell you about this bottom of the barrell alcohol soaked previously smart guy I know that relgion helped, but it only helped him for a little while, and he is gonna die soon. It is really sad.
And come to think of it I got off the sauce without relgion or AA, and in fact soberity lead me away from Jesus. I guess I really went off half cocked on that one.
I have noticed that many of the bums that I pass during the day kinda smell boozy, but about half of 'em will say "bless you" or tell me how they just got baptised.
Maybe relgion makes you drink?
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:10/24/2007 03:34:55)
Reply to : ridingawave
Reply to : snakechic... I was gonna tell you about this bottom of the barrell alcohol soaked previously smart guy I know that relgion helped, but it only helped him for a little while, and he is gonna die soon. It is really sad.
Yeah...that is sad.. A lot of good people die from the disease. I had a pal who died some years back...its reminded me of him. I think its a lottery ticket! & I don't think of a minute that people are 'bums' just because they are out of control - addicted. A lot of outstanding people throughout history have managed to be responsible citizens while harbouring a huge drinking habit...take Winston Churchill..he managed to win the war against Hitler while at the same time being depressed or as he's say fall under the 'black dog' and drink to oblivion most nights.
And come to think of it I got off the sauce without relgion or AA, and in fact soberity lead me away from Jesus. I guess I really went off half cocked on that one.I have noticed that many of the bums that I pass during the day kinda smell boozy, but about half of 'em will say "bless you" or tell me how they just got baptised.Maybe relgion makes you drink?
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