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snakechic
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(Date Posted:03/04/2007 23:26:19)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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jmassi
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(Date Posted:03/04/2007 23:42:41)
I just pasted in the URL and it worked. Here is a hotlink you can try: Run your cursor over it. It really is a hotlink, I promise:
The First Civil Lawsuit
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Blog on the Lillypad
http://www.jeriwho.net/lillypad2/blogger.htm
Recovering Fundamentalists Podcast:
http://www.jeriwho.net/podcast/blogger.html
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jmassi
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(Date Posted:03/04/2007 23:48:24)
Here is a hotlink to the David Gibb interview. When I pasted this in, it took me right to a Quicktime widget in my browser. So, it may be that your mp3 player has some issues with opening right in your browser. If directly clicking on the link does not work, try right clicking and see if you can "save file as" to download it to your drive.
Link to podcast with David Gibbs
I hope this helps!
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Blog on the Lillypad
http://www.jeriwho.net/lillypad2/blogger.htm
Recovering Fundamentalists Podcast:
http://www.jeriwho.net/podcast/blogger.html
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jmassi
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(Date Posted:03/05/2007 00:05:42)
Thank you for the link. It's pretty informative and all too familiar. I know you guys tend not to draw lines of distinction within any group that calls itself Christian, but the characteristics I've uncovered are that the abusive fundamentalists are just about the same, in terms of "effective" doctrine or "expressed" doctrine as the JW's that are abusive. No matter what they say on broader subjects, no matter what they will pay lip service to when questioned, there are certain bedrock day-to-day beliefs, the "effective" beliefs (ie, the beliefs that they really care about, the ones they harp on, and not the ones in the textbooks on the shelf) are just about identical to the "effective" beliefs of abusive Fundamentalists. And neither set has one particle to do with Christianity itself. You can actually line up the agreed-upon core beliefs of Protestant Christianity and see that the "effective" beliefs of Fundies and JW's are a different religion entirely. That's one of the premises of my book. I call that "effective" doctrinal set the sociopathic counterfeit of Christian doctrine.
It's not a blanket thing. Abuses happen even in churches that I would consider very good. But the rampant abuses and the rampant cover-ups tend to adhere to the oddball sociopathic counterfeit. I'm not letting anybody off the hook. The so-called "good" fundies let this happen and continue to let this happen, and I don't think anybody should join a fundamentalist church (or JW church) ever, anywhere.
But I write all this just to mention that to you: that the "effective" doctrines of wacko fundies are almost identical to the "effective" doctrines of JW's. They are almost identical in terms of religious practice, even though they woudl deny that up and down.
But I will stop here. I don't want to get ahead of myself on the book or the conference. Thanlks for your kind words and encouragement!
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Blog on the Lillypad
http://www.jeriwho.net/lillypad2/blogger.htm
Recovering Fundamentalists Podcast:
http://www.jeriwho.net/podcast/blogger.html
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snakechic
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5# |
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Posts:3524
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(Date Posted:03/05/2007 00:51:40)
Reply to : jmassi
I just pasted in the URL and it worked. Here is a hotlink you can try: Run your cursor over it. It really is a hotlink, I promise:The First Civil Lawsuit
Quotes article.....
"The suit alleges a "Jane Doe" was sexually molested as a child and Trinity did not protect her. What's more, the allegations say, the church "actively took steps to mislead parishioners as to Dr. Gray's fitness to serve in the ministry."
I've brought up similar issues with fellow WA members. That somehow....the 'child' must bear 'responsibility' for what happens in a 'chruch'...that its basically considered a social club so hands off. For the life of me...I don't get how 'chruches' - a religious organisation are exempted from legal responsibilities...that other organisations MUST take seriously and seek insurance cover in the case of this kind of abuse happening.
Simply by its denials...the abuse is continued.....but now you call it...'religious abuse' or 'organised abuses'.
the characteristics I've uncovered are that the abusive fundamentalists are just about the same, in terms of "effective" doctrine or "expressed" doctrine as the JW's that are abusive.
yeah...I know that 's why I thought you'd like to read it. Another example of that is my own personal experiences with the penties....I was told that they don't need to 'insure' against public liabilty - sexual misconduct within their ranks... because 'god' protects them - they are special to him...bla bla..bla... It was one of the 'sales' pitches my sister used on me..because she knew that this issue was one dearest to my heart. Strange logic.....isn't it...to deny is peace?
I'll get to the pod later......
seeya.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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6# |
Rank:none
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Posts:3524
Registered:
11/02/2004
Time spent:
6158 hours
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(Date Posted:03/06/2007 01:47:54)
Reply to : jmassi
Here is a hotlink to the David Gibb interview.
It worked....
My goodness....just want I always wanted to hear first thing....a couple of blokes talking about the business of christianity.
The first thing that struck me.....was that the lawyer is using the same old arguments :-
(a)'history' ....ie. 'we didn't know' back then...he mentioned it again......'years ago....hugging your pastor was the done thing.
(b)the 'church' is powerless...........a total contradiction to what 'it' normally professes when things are going 'good' for it.
(c) duty of care applies only to children...not adult survivors.............(the law in aust is different...there is no limit of time)
I also found these bits interesting....it contained biblical defenses - (or core beliefs of xainity if you like)
(a) regarding any cover ups.....the bible says xians 'shall' not gossip
(b)regarding any litigation by adults......the bible says xians should not sue xians
(c) regarding blogs or warning others of the abuse within chruches....the bible says no corupt words to come out of your mouth. ..in short ...no criticism allowed.
( but in case they do...you'd better have adequate insurance)
other points of interest.......mentioned the 'spillover effect'....oh derr! of course 'leaders' taint the church! That's what they are trying to stop.....not the abuses. Its all about the reputations and money.
No character clearing house in fundamentalism............well sorry but as the guy said......christianity is the only industry where you can more straight out of bible college and gain control over a million dollar organization. and become the CEO................pastorhood, minister, or clergy.
Then the 'interview'....hardly a hard hitting affair....continued onto the main agenda...of business and law.
Loved this quote...'churches cannot molest people,,,,,only people can'....my thoughts exactly when I say....'christians are what is wrong with christianity"...etc etc...
Dr Gray is the only person held accountable here.....it was the lawyers advice to up the insurance in 'your' chruch organisation. That 'Trinity' could manage a 'hit'...yep that's what he said...a 'hit' of $10,000.00 right now....so that's when the bible verses come in handy to stop xian suing other xians. etc.
The lawyer also gives the suggestion that A.D.R....(alternate dispute resolution) is a good idea?....that where christians get to mediate other christians? To me that's not unlike 'tribal' law and hardly effective.
Then of course to end the 'interview'...comes one of my favorites.....the GOD OF TAX....is bigger than the god of church...so the lawyers advice..was to follow jesus in that one..and give to Caesar
Finally.....they lament briefly....about the 'good old days'...when the 'man of god' enjoyed freedom from all this troublesome legal stuff.
Very Interesting to listen to...but nothing I didn't know was happening everyday around the world of christianity.
I know that public liabity is a growing area for all religious organisations to think about. It means that consumers as well as chruch leaders must see themselves more & more as part of the business community.
Yep....I don't much respect lawyers at the best of times....ape is a good word.
Personally I agree with this quote made by an online bud about another subject....... 'They need to start opening their mouths, then, or they share part of the blame for their brethern. "
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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jmassi
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7# |
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(Date Posted:03/06/2007 14:47:05)
The Gibbs interview is the thing that you pray 60 Minutes will pick up. I'm a Christian, a real live Bible believing Christian, and I think he is talking deception and utter crap. The book of Revelation talks about a church being removed out of its place because God finds its secret sins to be horrific. So yes, a CHURCH, a corporate entity, can be guilty of sin in God's eyes, going by the Bible. What Gibbs and all these yahoos bank on is that none of these Bible waving wackos actually read the Bible for what it says. They just tell their followers what the Bible says.
I could not get through the interview. It is such a misrepresentation of what the Bible demands in terms of accountability and purity of the ministry. And yes, Snakechic, you are absolutely right. American Christianity is the only industry where a guy with a BA can step right into control of a business entity, a church, and reap its benefits. And in Fundamentalism, he doesn't even have to come from a real college, and he need not have stayed for the degree. If he can whoop and holler loud enough, the yokels hire him.
But there are Christians, even Fundamentalists, who have listened to the interview and found Gibbs to me grossly misrepresenting what the Bible teaches about maintaining the purity of the church and keeping the ministry blameless. There are many others who profess to be Christians who are fooled by him.
But I think, once the two current civil cases go to trial, we will see Gibbs' fallacious arguments come apart. My hope and my prayer is that he really does a crash and burn before both juries and earns so much disrepute for Fundamentalism that the open shame will cause many people to get out of the movement. That's sort of what happened at the very beginning of the Catholic Church scandals. The cruelty and callousness of the lawyers for the Catholic Church so incensed the New York Press that they would not let the issue die, and they had the power and the influence to make it a nationwide issue. I am hoping Gibbs falls into the same trap. Thank God for a free press. The Culpeper Star Exponent helped the Culpeper victims by keeping the matter public and honest. And Jeanine Blaylock of First Coast News is keeping the Bob Gray case open and public.
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Blog on the Lillypad
http://www.jeriwho.net/lillypad2/blogger.htm
Recovering Fundamentalists Podcast:
http://www.jeriwho.net/podcast/blogger.html
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snakechic
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11/02/2004
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(Date Posted:03/07/2007 02:15:00)
Reply to : jmassi
The Gibbs interview is the thing that you pray 60 Minutes will pick up. I'm a Christian, a real live Bible believing Christian, and I think he is talking deception and utter crap. The book of Revelation talks about a church being removed out of its place because God finds its secret sins to be horrific. So yes, a CHURCH, a corporate entity, can be guilty of sin in God's eyes, going by the Bible. What Gibbs and all these yahoos bank on is that none of these Bible waving wackos actually read the Bible for what it says. They just tell their followers what the Bible says.
Absolutely! Its their business isn't it....to tell people what the bible says. Crazzzzy! It would be great if 60 Minutes took up this story..and a shit load of other religious type stories, instead of the usual crap they tend to run these days.
I could not get through the interview. It is such a misrepresentation of what the Bible demands in terms of accountability and purity of the ministry. And yes, Snakechic, you are absolutely right. Ameri | | |
