"Peace be with you."



Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
John, Chapter 20



God So Loved by Jaci Velasquez


        

 

(Message edited by Supertzar On 04/04/2009 17:09:42)

It was my understanding that this is a forum for people who are either in the process of leaving, or have already left Evangelicalism.  As requested by the moderators, I posted an introduction, hoping to receive some thoughtful input.  Instead I get bunny rabbits.

The poster Supertzar is typical of the knee-jerk fundamentalist.  No thought, just useless glitz.  Shame. 

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/07/2009 18:06:45)

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/08/2009 14:54:07)

Hello Sdan49,

Do you want to find The Way Out, or not?

I'm sorry you didn't like my post and the bunny rabbits--they're happy creatures, and it was Easter!  Silly rabbit, this isn't a forum for people who have left Evangelicalism, it's a forum for people who have left Fundamentalism.  I left Fundamentalism several years ago and then was a hardcore atheist for 7 years.  I posted here as an atheist during that time.  This was the first place that I looked to for help after leaving Fundamentalism.  I have been here at this site since it was founded, posting under various names including Demas Faithwrecker, and was the fourth person to register here.

I'm anything but a knee-jerk fundamentalist.  I put a lot of thought into my posts; I wish more people would read them.  I'm not a glitzy person at all.  Did you read my other posts?  I understand that Fundamentalism causes a lot of hate.  There aren't many people who have my perspective and experience.   I've been on both sides of the fence and on it too, but now I'm sure that  Jesus lives!  I wouldn't be here wasting my time and yours if I wasn't 100% sure.

"Shame," you say?  Just dial 9-11 and find The Way Out:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.  As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in Him will never be put to shame."
--Romans 10:9-11

                                                   
                                                   "Peace be with you."





                   This is Fundamentalism:




          
      THIS  IS EVANGELICALISM!:

(Message edited by Supertzar On 04/13/2009 21:00:37)

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/14/2009 08:57:41)

As I said, I put a lot of thought into my posts.  I'm not a newcomer;  I'm one of you.  That's why I'm working so hard to help save you.  I'm familiar with the writings of classic atheists such as Asimov, Ingersoll, Russell, and Nietzsche.  God is helping me save you.    You can cross the next bridge with 100% accuracy.  I would bet my life on it.  Are you ready to make it?  If your best friend was dying, would you insist on helping him/her?  I would.  Is this Fundamentalism?  See?  Get it??

JESUS wants to help you!  Don't Walk Away!  Read my signature!

Peace be with you ,
Supertzar

(Message edited by Supertzar On 04/20/2009 19:48:25)

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/20/2009 22:51:36)

Hi Sdan49 -

 Welcome to the forum.

  I've been here on and off for a few years now. I dont' know how long Supertzar has been around, but I've just notived him recently and am a bit disappointed that the mods haven't banned him yet - but - oh well.  I just ignore his posts - scroll on past without reading them.  Life's too short.

  Anyway -

  I think one major difference between science and religion is that science is actually interested in learning the truth, will admit when it's wrong, and will give you the new, correct information it has.

  For example, the bible says (somewhere) that anything you ask in the name of Jesus will be given to you.  Period.  Yeah - well CLEARLY that doesn't work - so they (religion) ammend it and say - Well, God will answer your prayers with Yes, No, or Maybe.  Well, that's mighty frickin' convenient, isn't it?  That way you're covered no matter how things go.

  If I'm prayinig for rain because I just planted new grass, and you're praying for sun because you have a football game that day - then I guess God is between a rock and a hard place - how can religion dictate or predict whose prayer will be answered?

  I have really morphed into a position of hatred regarding religion - particularly Christianity.  It's hard.  I would really like to feel neutral about it and I'm working on that.  I'm married to a Christian who is taking one of our children to church.  It's a fear-based move, in my opinion.  I feel sorry for him - he has a lot of anxiety over whether or not we are all going to "be together" after we die.  It's sad, really.  He has doubts about religion, but he is afraid to voice them, research them, etc.  Something about it doesn't make sense to him - but he ignores it, is afraid to ask too many questions.

Sorry - I'm rambling.

I think "evil" exists in the world simply because of the nature of things.  The nature of how the mind works and perceives it's environment.  People who are violent, etc are generally trying to gain/maintain some facade of control - in their minds - therefore there must be a perceived lack of control - or even a perceived need for control - they don't yet realize that control itself is actually an illusion.

  If everyone could just get in the morning, make their coffe and go about their life without worrying about other people, what other people have that they don't, what other people can do that they can't, etc, I think things would be a lot better.  It seems everything in life revolves around having the upper hand.

It gets very tiring and too dramatic for me.

OH - and some background about myself.....I was involved in a fundamentalist xian church in my early to mid teens - lots of emotional and spiritual abuse.  I finally got the courage, had my horizons expanded a bit and walked away a few years ago.  I never felt freer in my whole life.

Sorry - I cacn't see your original post when I'm replying, so I keep reading it again and adding responses....

  in erms of what happens after we die....well - I cna't say for sure and can only go by what I have had personal experience with.  I obviously haven't died, but have lived in houses with ghosts in them, seen them, had them manipulate my environment - so clearly something happens after we die - in my opinion.  I cna' explain it - but that's OK.

  I am learning to be comfortable without understanding everything.  I'm interested and on an intellectual basis I like to learn and would like to learn about exactly what happens when we die - but sine the reality of that happening (us having undisputable evidence) is slim to none, I am accepting that it is OK not to know - and I don't have to know to be happy or content. 

What if you knew what all of your birthday presents were before you opened them?  That wouldn't be very much fun.

I think part of learning that comfort is the decision for myself that hell does not exist.  If I lookat it in the context of xian teachings - god is the father, we are his children, etc......I have children - and there is *nothing* my children could do that would cause me to punish them forEVER.  If god exists, I'd like to think he has better people skills than I do.

  Also - I pointed out to my husband once that if our daughters ever brought home a MAN with the same personality as god - we wouldn't let her date him.  Controlling - my way or the highway - kind of thinking - just would not be acceptable.  So why does he accept it from a Supernatural being who supposedly loves him? 

AND - if god has unconditional love - how oculd he even entertain the idea of punishing us forever.  And do our family members have amnesia?  DO they forget about us when they go to Heaven and we don't?  How cacn they expect to be happy and blissful forever and ever knowing we are in hell?

  All of that just doesn't add up for me.

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/21/2009 09:58:06)

Hi sdan!

  First let me say that I am a stickler for proper use of the English language, and I am the champion speller in my home.  that said - I am the worst typist in the universe but life is too short to go back and edit posts of this length.  :O)

  SO - have you ever wandered around the question of why you *need* to know whether there is a god or not?  Comfort?  Intellect?  Ego?

  I still stick with "evil exists becasue it is the nature of things."  YES - we know lots of people that are not evil - but their brains perceived their environment differently than those who are "evil".  AND - certain people develoop coping skills more rapidly than others.  Just having children taught me that the difference between parents who beat their children and parents that don't is, very simply, coping skills.

Like - having that one kid in the family that goes nuts and does horrible things.  You can assume they were in basically the same environment as the other "good kids" - but for whatever reason, whatever scientific environment was laid out in "eveil child's" genes/brain - he perceived a problem - a threat - an imbalance in justice - and he seeks to correct it and re-establish control for himself.

  Of course - then there's the assumption that "evil child" was indeed treated the same as "good kids".  And again - "treated the same" is subjective to the kid, is it not?

 

  In terms of science declaring that there is definitely life out there somewhere. ...well - on some level, I seriously wonder if we don't have alien corpses being stashed in a government facility somewhere - but you know, we can't actualy come out and SAY that - but I'm sure those that need to know it, DO...on the other hand, even without all the scientific data and such, when I look at a photo of the universe, I think it would be terribly arrogant of us to even *assume* tha we are the only living creatures out there.  Maybe there aren't other living things that resemble humans - but most certainly other "functioning" things.  There was an article about just that in Discover magazine this month - it was pretty interesting.

  Let's assume for a moment that there is some sort of creator or intelligence that created this amazing expanse of universe - do you seriously think that something/someone that highly evolved with the ability to create all of this *needs* to have the egotistical stimulation of having millions of peons bowing down to it and hailing it as the almighty? Seriously - I think that type of "need" is fairly far down on the food chain. Hell - look at all the wack jobs with their little religious "compounds" and what not - that is the same sort of thinking and iron handedness that Christianity dictates that we expect from God - yet we think these guys are whacko child molester pedophiles.  Then xians go on the "NO-NO - God is about LOVE - it says so in the BIble!  Well - you can't ignore certain parts of the BIble just 'cause you want to or because it makes your religion look ridiculous.  You just can't.

And yes - science can be influenced by humans - we are human afterall, but I like to think that eventually - those that are truly seeking TRUTHS - and not just evidence to support their own thoughts - will rise above the others and lay it out for us, all neatly arranged in an Excel spreadsheet.  :O)  It seems true scientists will not only try to prove, but also disprove their theories.

I found this cool site today: godisimaginary.com  Fifty reasons why God is imaginary.  It really hit on a lot of my own thoughts and reasons for leaving Christinity.

  I'm sure my husband and I will get something worked out.  We are both very committed to our marriage.  We love one another despite our differences.  I was telling someone else that his believing would not be that big of a deal for me if he at least acknowledged that there is not a single rational reason to believe it, that the discrepancies in the bible alone would be reason not to believe, but that it just makes him feel better, so he is making an informed decision.

Kind of how I like fairies and dragons and art depicting fairies and dragons, evne though I know they don't really  exist.  They are just fun to think about.

:O)

 

Oh - and the whole God knows your mind and heart thing.... Yeah, well, *if* there is a God, I hardly think he would have given us a brain with this much potential and not expected us to use it - and by using it, we seem to be pointing more and more toward there not being a god.

  Don't you wonder - if there were never such a thing as "hell" if "religion" would have ever gotten off the ground as an idea or concept?

People who are never taught about god or religion can be perfectly happy until some xian goody two shoes comes along and suggests to them a reason they should be UNhappy.  LOOK how much happier you will be when you have GOD and JESUS.  Yeah - I wasn't any happier - in fact - I almost killed myself becasue they convinced me the reason I was unhappy was because of *ME* - becasue i wasn't serving god good enough or praying hard enough or doing WHATEVER good enough - *NOT* that perhaps there really isn't anything TO god - that there isn't any magic bullet waiting to make everything in my life peachy.

Did you ever think that "prayer" is relaly just an illusion that helkps us to release and stop worry about things that we can't control anyway?  BUT - we have such a need for control, we cna't just let things lie, so therefore - we'll turn them over to someone else tto deal with (aka GOD).

  Gotta eat lunch - I'm starving!

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/21/2009 16:12:43)

As I was reading your post a thought came to me.  Somewhere I heard someone say that most of our unhappiness is created by ourselves from within by resisting what IS.

  If people just accepted that we die and that's it, and that's OK, would we need religion?

I don't think we can say there isn't a "shred" of empirical evidence about life elsewhere in the universe.  UFO sightings are a long established reality.  And they did say "chance", right?  Logically, if they are finding other planets similar to earth, that have water, appropriate climate, etc, and knowing the evolution of our own planet, I can see why they feel fairly confident about it, although by definition, you are correct, it is "faith".

  Although - whether there are ET's out there or not - I'm not hanging my hat on *my* existence beyond this world based on whether or not they exist - it's just interesting.  I think that's a *major* difference between people speculating about God vs speculating about other life forms in other universes, etc.

  Have you ever had an experience with a ghost or other spirit?  I have.  On more than one occasion, in more than one house.  So - how does that factor in to your line of thinking - the need for absolute proof?  I can't prove that I saw anything or that anything happened - it's purely my oral report of the experience.  Would it have made a difference if the activity had been caught on hidden camera?  Or would there then be speculation of how the video was altered?

People believe what they want to believe.  What allows them to feel comfortable.  Christianity didn' do that for me.  It made no sense to me.  Did you take a look at that website?

  When I said Ego - I meant a sense of one's self.  As in, for most of your life, everything has gone through the filter of your religious upbrining.  It decided how you thought, felt, and acted.  Without that "model" in place - who are you?  How do you make decisions?  There is no standard by which to compare things.

I had a very serious identity crisis when I left Christianity.  I had no idea how to function.

  Maybe the purpose of our life is to just Be.  Just like the flowers, plants, and animals.  Just do your thing, survive and play.  I think so many people are so focused on what comes next, that they aren't really paying attention to what is NOW.  That seems to be an underlying current in our society in general.

  I mentioned the website to my dh last night (godisimaginary.com).  He said, "OH - so now you don't believe in God?" - in this really accusatory tone.  I replied that I hadn't believed in God as Christianity teaches it for some time now (like YEARS).  I think he tries to ignore that - it makes him uncomfortable.  He needs to believe that on some level, we are still in the same ballpark concerning the afterlife, etc.  I told him he should just check it out.  He said, "well i DO still believe in God!!!".  I pointed out that if he believes, that just reading a website isn't going to change that.  I think he *is* totally afraid that it will change it.  He doesn't want the information because he will feel compelled to doubt and question and those are major No-no's - even if he arrives back at the same conclusion he had in the beginning.


Fear and guilt are such odd things, aren't they?  So powerful.

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/22/2009 07:11:59)

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/22/2009 08:35:36)

  Perhaps instead of viewing the website as a medium to "sway your point of view", you can just consider it information gathering....food for thought.  Again - just reading one website isn't going to completely change your beliefs (like I said to my husband).  Nor should it.I will agree that it is a bit hostile, which is unfortunate, because to me - it represents a lot of the reasons I *don't* believe anymore.  Just one lie, empty promise and inconsistency after another.  For me - the site doesn't necessarily represent a reason to believe or not believe in God, but highlights why I no longer have any sort of tolerance for Christians who purport that the Bible is 100% accurate and true and the absolute word of God.  (which is a lot of Christians!)For me, I guess the site is more baout Christtianity, not God.

Hey there -   I have a little more time than I did earlier...  I've been trying to figure out why it bothers you that the site is anonymous.  It's just a collection of someone's opinions and why *they* think god is imaginary.  What the "truth" is for them.  I'm not sure how knowing who they are would change your perception of it?  Something that I work on *a lot* is being able to listen to other people's point of view about religion/God, etc without feeling attacked.  It can be hard.  Do you have PTSD?  I sort of do.  I say sort of because I miss out on a diagnosis by just one crieteria - that hypervigilence thing - and the hypervigilence only applies to me when I'm in a church or other religious setting - since it's not all the time, I guess I don't qualify - but whatever!  I'm really coming along nicely tho'.  Have you ever read Many Lives, Many Masters by Brian Weiss?  This book was a turning point for me.  I'm not sure why - it is a psychologists account of his sessions with a particular patient where he stumbled upon past life regression and subsequently, there were many messages given to him from "The Masters" - basically spirit guides.  It was very interesting and for whatever reason, gave me the "freedom" to begin to let go of my current belief system.  It was just such a different idea of what God is and how things are supposed to be - it made *so* much more sens to me than anything I was taught in the church.  It is a super fast read - a day or two - maybe you could find it at the library if you are interested.  Another good book is Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winell.  It's practically a handbook for walking away from fundamentalists.Have you considered, sdan, that you may have to embrace the idea of *not* belonging to any one school of thought?  That you may have to learn to be comfortable just in your own thoughts and beliefs, and trust your gut feelings about things without any validation from anyone else that your thoughts are "correct". If you didn't think your "salvation" was dependent on it - would the existence of God or not be such a big deal?  Or could it become categorized as incredibly interesting to think about - like - How does the Bermuda Triangle work?Regarding the "no ONE position is complete or accurate" - I guess that's part of my whole point, for myself.  If no one is correct, then everyone must be wrong, to a degree.  The "rules" of religions seem to vary greatly, except for the basic tenants of good living, etc.  So perhaps, we should ignore all the BS, look at the one common denominator and go with that.  Be nice.  There.  Simple.  Done.  No strings.  No rules.  Be happy.

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/23/2009 12:03:57)

What would be different in your life if you know how/why/where Evil exists?

LOL - sorry - that was me up above - forgot to sign in.  :O)

Here's another site to try:

www.unreasonablefaith.com

I just found it a day or so ago, so haven't looked around too much.  BUT - the "owner's" name is right on top for you.  :O)

(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/23/2009 14:45:09)

Hello Sdan49,

You say I have no authority here?  Well, God Himself has told me to try to help you and others here.  There is no higher Authority.  God speaks to me as i type--it's like dictation.  I'm His servant here, and this might be your best chance to be saved.  So, you see, it's not an "assumption about [my] faith."  God will speak to you too, if you will go to Him.  That's what i've been trying to make clear.  If God spoke to you directly, would you continue to doubt?  Would you call it an assumption about your faith?  No way!

Peace be with you,
~Supertzar

 





(Message edited by Supertzar On 04/26/2009 14:24:54)

To lsl_mss:

I cannot come up with an answer to your question which satisfies without dragging in so many issues from my past, including the bullying which children inflict on their peers, especially ones with handicaps and deformities.  But I'm still mulling this over, because I think it is a very important question.

I have ordered both of the books you recommended from the library, they are both due in in the next day or two, so I'll be reading this week.  Thx.


(Message edited by sdan49 On 04/27/2009 10:35:45)

 

(Message edited by Supertzar On 05/01/2009 05:55:10)

To lsl_mss.....

(Message edited by sdan49 On 05/02/2009 12:48:46)