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SmashedPumpkin
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1#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
Registered:10/23/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 18:32:43)
well hey, if two people of the same sex want to do the tango, who's business is it anyway?
If a homosexual feels guilty about what they are doing, maybe they should examine the root causes of that guilt. I would bet it would have something to do with the feelings of shame that are drilled into people at the various churches, etc.
one of the things I really regret about having been a fundy is the terrible way i used to view "different" people. If I have shame for anything, it would be that.
most religions want to extend their influence by having their subjects procreate, creating a progeny that will hopefully extend their dogma to "the furthest reaches of the world." Probably why many religions are against homosexuality. Anyway, just my thoughts. Be prepared to get banished to the 84th level of hell by MoG and CurtX for this one.
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Voltaire
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2#
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Rank:none
Score:1490
Posts:1490
Registered:07/08/2001
Time spent: 15377 hours
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 18:44:21)
I don't see anything wrong about homosexuality at all, now that I've deconverted. While I was a believer I was always confused about what to think about this issue because the Bible not only condemns it but says people caught in homosexual acts are to be stoned to death. This all just seemed so ugly and hateful. Now I simply attribute the Bible's death sentence on sex with the same gender as just another fine example of Biblical brutality.
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Zombies, Unicorns, Devils, Sea Monsters, Satyrs, Dragons, Six Winged Angels, Gods, Demons, Witches, Astrologers, A walking & talking snake, Magical fruit, Talking donkeys, human headed six-winged beasts, Ghosts. All that stuff is in the Bible and yet they tell me it"s not mythology?
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Aoife
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3#
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Rank:none
Score:1
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Registered:09/28/2001
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 18:55:20)
Mr Highwind
I never thought there was anything wrong with homosexuality before I became a Christian, and really had to struggle hard to find something wrong with it after I did. I tried not to think about the anti-homosexuality aspects of my church, because it really wasn't something I felt comfortable.
Since walking away I just think what I did before. No harm, no foul. Stumbling across www.godhatesfags.com was one of the most singularly unpleasant things that has happened to me online. I never heard anything like that in my church, it just wasn't really talked about. I dread to think what kind of opinions I would hold, what kind of person I'd be if that siteowner was my parent or pastor.
I think now as I did when I was an active part of the church..that if the church spent as much time railing against social injustice as it did in prurient concern with the sexual behaviours of the world, then it might actually do some good.
Take care
CA
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enlightenment
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4#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:06/29/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 19:02:45)
Reply to : SmashedPumpkin
most religions want to extend their influence by having their subjects procreate, creating a progeny that will hopefully extend their dogma to "the furthest reaches of the world." Probably why many religions are against homosexuality.
Oh yeah.. look at Mormonism: From what I recall the in the membership totals show that the increase is mostly from Families of Mormons vs new converts.
in any event.. what a business.. for every new convert you get 10% of their earnings.. the *leaders* gotta be crazy rich by now...
Homosexuality now doesn't bothered me before I walked away I used to be but now I go by: do what you want in your "private" life, as long as everyone involved is consenting and everyone involved is doing whatever out of free will.. I don't see a problem. Do whatcha like =].
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---( enlightenment )---
The man who does not do his own thinking is a slave, and is a traitor to himself and to his fellow-men.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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SmashedPumpkin
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5#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
Registered:10/23/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 19:08:51)
Reply to : enlightenment
in any event.. what a business.. for every new convert you get 10% of their earnings.. the *leaders* gotta be crazy rich by now...
Hey, you combine that with the AMWAY that a lot of these fundies are into, and you could really store up some treasure on earth 
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Anonymous
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6#
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Registered:04/06/2001
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 19:24:02)
When I was a Christian I had no problem with homosexuality. I don't recall ever hearing it mentioned from the pulpit and I reasoned that had it been that important Jesus would have mentioned it. Jesus says nothing on the subject at all in the NT. I rationalized the Christain view of women the same way. Had it been that important Jesus would have mentioned it and the parts of the keep women down were either from the OT or Paul. I figured I didn't worship Paul so I could ignore those parts of the Bible. Of course now my view of the Bible has changed completely, but that was the way I thought at the time.
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lamentation
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7#
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Rank:none
Score:6
Posts:6
Registered:09/18/2001
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 20:12:46)
My beliefs about homosexuality are clearly different than they were when I was growing up and part of the fundie tapestry. I have grown intellectually and emotionally, moving beyond childhood sexual abuse and fundamentalism's odd mental constraints.
As I have said elsewhere, I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. (The abuse occured in a religious context.) Among other things, this created an obsession with sexual identity: am I gay? why am I so abnormal? am I a person who deserves rape? am I essentailly flawed? The fact that I am not gay didn't stop me from worrying about it, a kind of deeply-internalized homophobia really. I would never have talked about with this anyone in my family or church or school. Ha! That would not have been wise or very safe. I hated myself; I didn't more hatred. I tried to get on with life, play football, have fun, what have you.
As a little person, I was taught and believed that homosexuality was nefarious. There were two levels to this: spoken, homosexuality was a serious sin, although if they come forward and ask for help and forgiveness there are ways to "heal" gay people (a kindler, gentler heterosexism); unspoken, gay men were especially disgusting and clearly worthy of hatred (not much about lesbians, though).
Now, as an adult member of Generation X, I am alienated from my intense religious heritage, I have moved a long way from it. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with homosexuality! There's no sin or wrong, nothing worthy of hate and nothing in need of healing. The things I was taught in church and parochial school feel so alien, and are so dangerous.
My view of sexuality is different. Sex is good. Responsibility and respect are essential, but moral dictates about gender roles, mating practices and sexual feelings no longer exist. We are not governed by the hard, harsh words and sentiments of Mosaic law or Pauline epistles.
Also, as I deal with my own childhood abuse and thereby come to feel better about my own sexuality and self, I feel more comfortable and empowered regarding broader issues beyond my experience. So, not only aren't my beliefs determined by church teachings or unspoken bigotry, but they are also not determined by my own fears and hatred.
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"Harry Potter is the devil and he is destroying people." Pastor Jack Brock, Christ Community Church in Alamogordo, New Mexico
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rowan
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8#
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Registered:09/24/2001
Time spent: 2403 hours
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 20:57:41)
Reply to : SmashedPumpkin
Hey, you combine that with the AMWAY that a lot of these fundies are into, and you could really store up some treasure on earth
amway!! nooooooooo....*runs away shrieking in terror*...geez. my parents were into amway for awhile. it was just freaky. my hubby calls amway the "cult of salespeople". i mentioned to my dad once that i'd seen amway listed on some cult awareness type of website and he immediately got all huffy and defensive..."but they've got GREAT products"....hee hee!! 
as for homosexuality: i grew up being taught it was "wrong", but never really could completely buy into the supposed "wrongness" of it. love comes in many forms and i DON'T think it should be limited to just couples made up of the opposite sex...do what makes YOU happy.
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lamentation
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9#
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Rank:none
Score:6
Posts:6
Registered:09/18/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/27/2001 23:25:15)
Let me just add to my above response.
Today, at the post-church mid-day dinner with my family, with no real conversational context somebody said,
"...and those homosexuals! They are taking over the [public] schools! They think that they can just go anywhere!...And now [a local Lutheran church] is even catering to those sick people. They have their own Bible study!...."
This is typcial and met with knowing nods of disgust.
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"Harry Potter is the devil and he is destroying people." Pastor Jack Brock, Christ Community Church in Alamogordo, New Mexico
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enlightenment
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10#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:06/29/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 00:01:17)
Reply to : SmashedPumpkin
Hey, you combine that with the AMWAY that a lot of these fundies are into, and you could really store up some treasure on earth
And I thought you werent supposed to have earthly treasures. Jeez I guess I got it all wrong heh.
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---( enlightenment )---
The man who does not do his own thinking is a slave, and is a traitor to himself and to his fellow-men.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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Kiera
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11#
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Rank:none
Score:13
Posts:13
Registered:09/21/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 00:11:16)
I have no problem with it at all. I watched to of my best friends driven to nervous breakdowns by the church over their sexuality. They now attend a church that accepts homosexuality and are both much much better. IT is just another group for them to persecute - women, slaves, blacks, Jews, gays - they preach a gospel of hate and they need someone to hate inorder to justify it.
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Duke_Nukem
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12#
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Rank:none
Score:1
Posts:1
Registered:06/27/2001
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 00:12:56)
Reply to : rowan
amway!! nooooooooo....*runs away shrieking in terror*...geez. my parents were into amway for awhile. it was just freaky. my hubby calls amway the "cult of salespeople". i mentioned to my dad once that i'd seen amw
Rich DeVos, one of the co-founders of the Amway religion IS also a big fundy. Here's some info from http://www.angelfire.com/nm2/hnheeg/page2.html
"I'm going to tell you what's wrong with this country... it's the people of this nation that got the problem with this nation... they have allowed everything we stand for to go down the tubes by hiring un-Christian people to try and run a Christian based society". Amway Diamond Dave Severn.
"I asked God for a business and He showed me the Amway business". Dexter Yager.
"God gave us a life, and then he gave us a choice; choice to be a winner, choice to be a loser. Choice to live in America or leave. Choice to get in Amway and be a winner, or laugh and be a whiner". Dexter Yager.
"Don't wear the pants in your family", he admonishes the women who make up half his audience. He glowers at the men, "Get rid of your pornography". Bill Britt quoted in Forbes Magazine. c1991.
Not my porn!?! Not my precious porn!!! I knew there was a reason I never listened to my church friends who wanted to get me into Amway.
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enlightenment
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13#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:06/29/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 00:16:04)
Reply to : lamentation
Let me just add to my above response.Today, at the post-church mid-day dinner with my family, with no real conversational context somebody said,"...and those homosexuals! They are taking over the [public] schools! They think that they can just go anywhere!...And now [a local Lutheran church] is even catering to those sick people. They have their own Bible study!...."This is typcial and met with knowing nods of disgust.
You know, this reminds me of the times when people were racist against African Americans.. I guess some people need someone to blame in order to feel good about themselves or feel superior in some way..
Xtianity needs satan to blame everything on. For a very interesting study, try and find what "evil" satan actually did in the bible, who authorized it?.. etc.. very enlightening  )
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---( enlightenment )---
The man who does not do his own thinking is a slave, and is a traitor to himself and to his fellow-men.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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enlightenment
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14#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:06/29/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 00:18:05)
Reply to : Duke_Nukem
Not my porn!?! Not my precious porn!!!
**ROFL***..
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---( enlightenment )---
The man who does not do his own thinking is a slave, and is a traitor to himself and to his fellow-men.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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SmashedPumpkin
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15#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
Registered:10/23/2001
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 00:20:42)
Oh, why did I bring up amway. why WHY?!?!!? It was almost as bad of a decision as accepting christ!!!!!!
Hey, if there are no fundies and amway-ites in hell, please give me a one way ticket.
SP
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rowan
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16#
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Registered:09/24/2001
Time spent: 2403 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 01:30:08)
Reply to : Duke_Nukem
Rich DeVos, one of the co-founders of the Amway religion IS also a big fundy.
yep...and that's part of what attracted my father to the whole darn thing to begin with. it was supposedly just a "christian" way to make big bucks. they were heavily into it for awhile, too. i remember being dragged to meetings and even a trip to some convention in florida (hey, at least i got to go to disneyworld and seaworld...woo!) and having to listen to those godawful cassette tapes by zig ziegler (sp?) constantly. then i think the whole thing got even a bit TOO cultish for them and they quit. my dad still bought amway products for years after, though. 
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SmashedPumpkin
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17#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
Registered:10/23/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 01:42:18)
FYI, AMWAY started a new re-branded version of amway called Quikstar (sp?)in case any of you have been hit up with that yet. All it is is amway on the internet. You'll hear things from them like, "interested in a great own your own internet business opportunity?"
FUCK them and their pyramid schemes regardless of how many different names they give it.
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SmashedPumpkin
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18#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
Registered:10/23/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 01:54:19)
I started a new AMWAY/Quixtar thread so we can let MrHighwind have his thread back
Let's post any relating info on that new thread.
SP
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Anonymous
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19#
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Registered:04/06/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 03:45:11)
One of the reasons I left a fundy church was the way gays were being treated and the tremendous "homophobia" that was present. It was really stupid stuff!! Any man or teenage boy who walked a little different or didn't bring a girl or wife to church was suspect. What I have noticed is the connection between different prejudices; most people who don't like gays also don't like blacks or think women are inferior or treat the disabled differently, etc. I saw a lot of this stuff in the fundy church we attended and realized this wasn't what Jesus was trying to teach. But there are verses in the Bible that support almost any prejudice, depending on how you interpret them.
Carol
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Anonymous
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20#
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Registered:04/06/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 06:09:05)
Sounds like a church full of repressed homosexuals, as in they seem obsessed with that. I once heard a traveling evangelist who claimed to know a girl who knew Rock Hudson, and knew he was gay, before his sexuality was known to the public. He claimed that Rock Hudson became gay because he was a jaded heterosexual, of sorts. In his diatribe, uh, sermon he tried to make it look like Rock Hudson spoke for most gay men. The evangelist must not have known any gay people.
I think that is how many fundies think that gay men are pedophiles. They think gay people are on this sexual path that takes them further into sexual deviancy.
Bro. V
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nologoboy
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21#
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Rank:none
Score:513
Posts:513
Registered:07/24/2001
Time spent: 8797 hours
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(Date Posted:10/28/2001 11:43:17)
I never had a problem with gays. I have known too many and have had too much fun & laughter to ever consider it an issue. Going to the Mardis Gras in Sydney also helps to loosen you up.
The only issue I do consider are the many positives. The gay people I have known all take life by the scruff of the neck (whoops ). When I was a child, I more or less thought that a FAG was a dirty man who would do anything to rape me. A nice, hateful message brought to you by the local church.
I a backhanded sort of perspective, I am also glad that the many beautiful gay artists were so tormented that they produced works of utter grandeur through history. Being a recording artist made me see the inspiration that torment can have on your expression of ideas. I don't mean to say that all artists are tormented, just the ones from inhibitive societies.
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"In the end we will conserve only what we love; we will love only what we understand; and we will understand only what we have been taught." -Baba Dioum
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Cyranothe2nd
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22#
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Rank:none
Score:799
Posts:799
Registered:07/29/2001
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(Date Posted:10/29/2001 03:19:39)
*gasp* Rock Hudson is gay?! Noooooooooooo!
LOL! I am in love with a gay man. Yes Erik, it's you...*wink* Erik has been my friend since we road the bus together in 3rd grade. When he came out it was a big impitus for me to Walk Away. I was already thinking about it and my love for him just brought it home. Would I condemn and castigate (I SAID castigate, not castrate. Sheesh!) my best friend or have the courage to leave the Funyland behind and strike out on my own?
Of course now I am totally open and comfortable with faggotry. I even found a boyfriend for Erik...actually, that didn't turn out so well...sorry Erik. 
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Anonymous
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23#
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Registered:04/06/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/29/2001 05:05:30)
Reply to : Anonymous
Sounds like a church full of repressed homosexuals, as in they seem obsessed with that.
You hit the nail on the head or got the minister right in his limp wrist, however you want to put it. Actually the minister of this church admitted to having "gay experiences" while attending Purdue University. But, according to him, "The Lord delivered me from that demon." Judging from the way the pastor seemed to be trying to "do the church" so to speak, methinks the Lord must've fumbled on that pass. This guy was clearly bisexual in the present tense, no deliverance there whatsoever! And his homophobia was a way of taking the attention off of himself.
I have nothing against gays; believe it's a biological thing and who the heck cares who they sleep with? That's their business!! But I DO have a problem with ministers who profess that homosexuality is a sin and go around pointing fingers at people they think are gay, then do their darndest to discreetly engage in homosexual activity with church members.
Carol
I once heard a traveling evangelist who claimed to know a girl who knew Rock Hudson, and knew he was gay, before his sexuality was known to the public. He claimed that Rock Hudson became gay because he was a jaded heterosexual, of sorts. In his diatribe, uh, sermon he tried to make it look like Rock Hudson spoke for most gay men. The evangelist must not have known any gay people.I think that is
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Anonymous
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24#
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Registered:04/06/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/29/2001 07:18:57)
Being Bisexual gives me an entirely different perspective. I have encountered prejudist as well. I have been attracted to both sexes for as long as I can remember but have had mostly heterosexual relationships. I kept it a secret for a long time and still don't openly announce it because, like it or not, bisexuals are seen as confused people who lack sexual boundries. Even gays and lesbians have rejected me which I found unusual. The sexual scale has two ends- heterosexual and homosexual. There must be a middle, no?
I obviously have no problem with homosexuality. Never have, never will. The only thing that turns me off of getting into the scene is that the lifestyle seems to demand you center everything you do around your sexuality. Gay baseball leagues, gay bars, gay village, etc. I'm simply not that concerned with it. It doesn't define who I am. I would rather centre my life around increasing my awareness and loving those around me. I also dislike the "numerous partners in a short span of time" that seems to be quite prevelent in gay circles. Yes it's there in heterosexual circles as well not to the degree that I have witnessed here in the gay community.
I think balance is a good idea. Besides, sex is so empty, so incomplete an experience in the absence of love or mutual friendship and respect. For me anyway.
The Pride Parade seems to draw out those who need to prove something. Part of the purpose of these parades is to gain public acceptance and awareness. I find it difficult to accept people running up and down the street naked to prove thier point. (At least that's what happens at the parades in Toronto.) I celebrate my sexuality in a more descreet manner. Alone or with my partner trying anything I can possiblely think of. In private.
I think we need to be mindful about how we push this movement forward. While noone has the right to tell us we are not normal or sinners, we don't present an educated or convincing arguement for acceptance if we are running around topless or butt naked in a parade making gestures of anal sex while walking behind our buddy. In the pride Parade we are indirectly saying, "hey, we're fine with who we are and we're just like you only we do it with the same sex". But in the pride parade, we're not acting like everyone else. We are ramming our sexuality down peoples throats in a public display and this is something I do not agree with. To push the movement of homosexuality and bisexuality being okay and nothing to fear, we have to play the game well. Just like politics. A tactical, methodical appraoch that gets the best results for all those concerned.
Now some would say that the heterosexuals centre everything they do around thier sexuality. Everything is sold with sex and VERY young women are used to sell a myriad of products. I saw a commercial for Nivea body cream and there is this little girl who can't be any older than thirteen running around in her panties. She is made up to be a sexual object, something to be desired and then we wonder why there are people running around trying to feel up and molest our children. HELLO!!
Society is sexually sick here in North America. As far as I am concerned, the acceptable age for exploiting children is getting pushed farther and farther back. I see ten year old girls running about in thier belly button shirts and blue eyeshadow trying to emmulate the women they see in commercials and often our self esteem is directly proportional to how sexually attractive we are. It's sad really that we place so much emphasis on our sexual appeal. I am an attractive person and recieve complements on my appearence but it doesn't mean anything really. So I'm nice to look at. Who cares?
Do I love well? Am I a good friend? Am I actuallizing my full potential? Do I use my mind and my energy to the betterment of my life and those around me? What can I contribute to society so that generations to come will live in a peaceful and abundant world? These are some of the things I feel we should focus on. Again, for the good of the whole. I see this trend becoming more popular but lets face it, The only thing that gets more results when you type it into a search engine on the web other than Religion is sex. One in five people in North Amercia is ADDICTED to Porn. That shit is fucked up.
What ever people want to do between two concenting adults is no ones business. Part of celebrating the human experience is to explore our bodies, and while that can be the most fantastic, mindblowing experience, we place waaaaaay too much emphasis on it.
In my opinion......
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epiphani
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25#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:07/11/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/30/2001 05:51:22)
When I was a fundy, I felt I had to defend the concept of "homosexuality is wrong" even though I never FELT it was... I just went along because I was told, spouted the "love the sinner hate the sin" crap, but I never really understood what the big deal was. I mean jeez, who cares "what goes where" between consenting adults??? I remember having an argument with my mom about (while I was still a fundy but close to my de-conversion) and almost giving her a heart attack when she said "because it's not natural, it doesn't go along with the natural purpose of procreation, blah blah blah", and I replied with - "So you've never had oral sex? I mean, a woman's mouth on a man's genitals or vice versa obviously doesn't have any procreative purpose, right?!" For a minute there I thought she was going to die of embarassment... but she dropped it and has never said anything since!!!
Once I de-converted it was a huge relief to no longer have to "toe the party line" about something that never made sense to me anyway (the idea of it being wrong). Furthermore, I personally have always seen sexuality as being a sort of fluid contiuum - some people are totally hetero, some are totally homo but most fall somewhere in between and some smakk-dab in the middle. Personally, I have been attracted to women at times and had some experiences that have made me realize that (for me at least)
sexuality and CERTAINLY sensuality are not black-and-whites. But then of course, we know that to fundies EVERYTHING is black and white!!!
Long Live the Fruits & Nuts!!! And fruity nuts! 
E
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MrHighwind
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26#
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Rank:none
Score:250
Posts:250
Registered:09/17/2001
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(Date Posted:10/30/2001 15:02:20)
When I was a Christian, I HATED homosexuality. I thought it was dirty and sinful and immoral and completely unnatural.
It took me falling in love to snap out of that.
There's a whole story behind that, anyone interested?
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God heard you talking in your sleep.
God knows all the secrets that you keep.
Are you free?
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Aoife
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27#
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Rank:none
Score:1
Posts:1
Registered:09/28/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/30/2001 15:16:15)
Mr Highwind
I'm interested!! And nosey.... Tell on brother! Testify!
Take care
CA
PS I came to chat, as invited, and then you ignored me. I second pumpkin, the chatroom sucks.
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Campaigning against media mis-representation of survivors
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epiphani
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28#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:07/11/2001
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(Date Posted:10/30/2001 20:21:14)
Yay! Storytime! Yes, Mr. Highwind, tell us your tale... it sounds like an interesting one!!!
*Also, CA, I THIRD the motion - the chatroom sucks, I have tried to invite people to chat numerous times but I don't think it works, or something...
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Mr. Anonymous
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29#
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Rank:none
Score:3
Posts:3
Registered:08/10/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/30/2001 22:23:53)
The person you want to invite to chats must be online for it to work. And you must be patient to wait until he notices it. It's just not as effective as ICQ.
A good way to make you chat works is if you appoint a chat with the other person to a fixed time.
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test
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SmashedPumpkin
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30#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
Registered:10/23/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/30/2001 23:47:52)
Mr Highwind,
Please tell us your story. If not for our listening enjoyment, then for MoG's pain.
In all seriousness though, you could be a real help to a lot of deconverting people, since there is so much hatred among christians for homosexuals. They won't call it hate - you know the line - hate the sin, not the sinner - while at the same time they strip you of all rights as a citizen and try to stuff you away to make them feel more comfortable. It's funny how fundies scream about how terrible the persecution is against christians all over the world, and these are the SAME assholes who persecute a very large and decent portion of our society right here at home. If the fundies got their way and created the theocracy that they all want, life as a homosexual would be comparable to what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany.
I am really glad you are here, Mr Highwind, to share your story. Now please tell us.
SP
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