Hey Dok,

I liked your post in the Lion's Den about fundy bashing so I'm a bit confused as to the last bit of your post here. I see your point (dimly as through a...woah!) but IMO I think it's a bit premature for this section. I personally can't handle that level of 'revelation' - I need to vent and rage and rant against xtianity firstly - I may have been "taken in by another man on the hill" as you say but I was born and raised an RC and brainwashed long before I had the opportunity to think for myself like so many others of the 95% RC population of Ireland so I think it's unfair of you to expect me to run before I can even crawl never mind walk.

I was physically and emotionally abused as a child and raised in abject poverty (less than $1 a day for my mother to raise a family of three at one stage) - I struggled and fought for everything including meaning in life and purpose and love - the xtians offered me all of that and now I've discovered that it's all a lie! I have to come to terms with how I spoke in tongues, prophesied, healed the sick, felt god's presence and cast out demons first. I have to come to terms with the fact that I'm not chosen of god to change the course of world events and that I don't have a deity that 'know's the thoughts' he has for me 'thoughts to give me a future' yadda yadda - I don't have a destiny in life and a gurantee of eternal bliss and reward when I die - what the f**k and you doing here telling me that it's my own fault - that's really really going to help me NOT.

I'm down in the pits of depression and the last thing that I need is to be effectively told that it's all my own fault or that even half of it is my own fault - I don't want to argue with you cos I respect you but I personally think you're out of line posting that here in the support section.

Noel.

Dok,

My theory about Christian family members going off the deep end when one leaves Christianity is that they are suddenly very, very nervous. I suspect that they realize that there are actually other options in life -- scary choices to make. Choices that will cause them to catch a lot of grief. And, two, they're more than a bit envious of your escape. After all, now you can go out and do things and say what you want and enjoy a cocktail have premarital sex and all kinds of delicious pleasures not available to them -- as long as they're stuck back there.

I think your approach of not saying a whole lot is probably best. If nothing else, you can sit back and enjoy your fundy brother-in-law's methods for trying to get more info out of you and generally feeling uncomfortable. Did I write that? I must be in a bad mood today!

Cheers!

Victoria

As far as my saying it is at least half your fault, at some point, whether indoctrinated as a child or converted as an adult, some culpability rests on every believer for the time they CHOOSE to stay in the fold and follow the divine orders to do this and that and all that.  This is one of the things that made me the angriest, but somewhere along the line I had to accept my own responsibility for the part I played.  Even though I had the seeds planted as a kid and believed as a kid, and later was assimilated into a fundy church, there was a point where I was operating on my own, perpetuating what I have for years bitched about here, proselytisers, witnessing, and other moderate plain ol' jesus freak behavior. 

This is a MAJOR causation of my own rage, that my own integrity was so compromised by the lies fed to me.  But I can't blame others for it entirely, I wasn't a mindless automoton, I made choices. I have to own up to that and get past that.  I tell you seriously it has always been a "triggering" experience (I hate that fucking term, it is so passive) when I play BORG here, because I slip into the character way too easily, even if it was to make fun of neanderthalesque bible pimpin. It used to scare the shit out of me until I realized it was part of the doorway out.  Acknowleging my own part, that it was ME, not the people who pulled me in, not the people who wrote the bile, (err I mean bible, forgot a b), not the preachers, not the culture, it was ME!  Everyone here has some point where they can look back and be disappointed in themselves for their actions as a christian, even if it was during childhood.

Hell I could be wrong.  Not the first or last time. 

Yes this is my personal journey, I posted it in case something might make sense to someone in their process.  Yes I can understand not being ready to stop raging, I have my days/weeks still.  But somewhere along the line the anger will lose it's momentum, it will lose its energy.  It will probably come along when someone gets turned off totally by your anger, and a bridge is burned that you didn't want to burn, or you hurt someone you didn't want to and you realize your anger is spreading the damage further.  (Then you get crafty, heh heh)  What happens when you finally lose your precious anger?  When it fades?  And I guarantee it will, it's like some physics thing, that energy will dissipate and eventually not have enough spark to even rile yourself up.  Your own anger will bore even you.  What then?

That is what I am talking about, it may be far down the line, I have been raging for the better part of 3 years, and I still have my days, but...  I have better things to do than be pissed off at a fiction writer who died 1900 years ago, nor his endless stream of historical dupes, including myself... 

If you come to that crossroad, then that is what I am taking about, you have a choice to make when you get there.

As far as my new family, I know eventually it will come to a head and I will state my case.  Probably sooner than later , because indeed I do feel like I am hiding something big.  I wait for timing and appropriateness.  I do not want to make a useless stance and be an atheistic apologist.  That is the same fucking game I played before as a christian.  It is a useless game.  I think it will have to do with when I think the people around me are ready to hear something like that, I don't want to lose members of my newfound family over something as stupid as my paradigm vs theirs.  If they aint hurting anyone, and they arent, they are very tolerant and loving, (there is only one I have issues with, and I will pop his bubble someday) then what is the reason to try to rock the boat so I can push MY truth?  Besides, as I used to be a hardcore fundy, how fucking hypocritical would that be of me?

The main reason though is this; I love poking fun at stuff, I am as always a sacreligious person at heart.  Naturally I draw stuff on those lines that have the quality of being very provocative.  Even non-christian friends  tell me I am going to hell.    But the christianity bashes are now not as personal as they once were, but there is such a wealth of idiocy to draw from there.  But to be fair, I cant just pick on that stupid ass worldview and leave the other equally stupid ones alone.  So this part of what I am writing about is a serious quandary I find myself in, how to go forward with something I enjoy the hell out of, without destroying some very important relationships?  Not being a christian is one thing, this is an entirely different issue.  Me and my fuckin pencils can cause a lot of damage, depending on how far my scribblez get seen.  One day I am on one side, fuckit, goferit, the next I am on the other side and am trying to find a way to do it secretly under an assumed name, so the fam don't find out.  Then there is the whole, what if a religious maniac with a gun comes looking for me like they did Larry Flynt, or my family?  Maybe I am giving myself too much credit to think I could make such an impact...

what to do...

Dok~

  I completely get what you are saying. I've been there for a while myself. I'm TIRED of bitching. I want something more constructive to do. And yes, I know that I bought into the whole thing out of naivete or stupidity and stuck with it against my better judgement. It IS half my fault and that's the bitch of it...I don't want to hate myself so I hate the Fundies instead. And I know that that is unjust and I have no right to that anger because they are just suffering dupes too. But the anger is protection. It keeps me from pointing the finger back at myself.

  But sometimes when the anger burns off I have to face the facts...that it was really my own self-righteousness that kept me a Fundy far longer than my family or my church or peer pressure. I did it to myself. I've been through all the blame and guilt and anger at me and I'm just tired anymore. I need something better to do that bitch at how fucked up my life used to me. I need to build and go on.

  I sometimes feel like I simmer too much because of this forum. Not to say that I don't appreciate it and love it but when I come here I feel like I have some right to that anger and I feel myself holding on to it in a way that is ultimately destructive to me. That's why I went away the first time and that's why I don't hang out here as much as I would like to. I love everyone here ( and I'm not condemning or making judgements on anyone) but I sometimes feel th at it is more of a detriment for me to be this angry for so long.

  I need to get past it.

Reply to : Dok

I think you are correct to take responsability for moving on.  After weeks of hearing about the movie "Titanic" I just wanted to shout:  "The boat sank!  Get over it!" 

In the words of the great contemporary American philosopher Meat Loaf, "It doesn't matter what we're leaving, only what we're going to find!"  What do you expect to find?

Jamie

P.S.  Nihilism is a dark place; I didn't stay there very long. 

There is always a question in "recovery boards" as to whether they are simply way stations that people move on from or if they serve any other purpose.  I think that some forums should be dedicated to angst to allow venting and that people will move on from those forums.  I would hope that other forums would become more permanent communities of people with shared experiences who try to help each other and move forward.  We may recover, but do we ever stop growing?  Personally, I need all the help I can get, from wherever I can get it, and maybe I can give something back in return along the way.

Jamie

---

I'm kind of in Dok's position. In case you haven't noticed, I don't post nearly as much as I used to on this board. I just kind of lurk in the background trying to keep things running smoothly. I'm basically over it, although there are still times I get triggered about the whole nightmare I went through.

As Cyrano pointed out, constant bitching about what I went through gets pretty old after a while; I'm pretty sick and tired of doing it myself. I view it as a stage to get through, not get stuck at. At the same time it takes a long time to work through all that stuff; the pent up rage from a lifetime of being psycholigically abused I found was enormous and overwhelming.

And that's what brings me to what nodolan had to say: he's not at the stage that Dok and I are at. He's raw and bleeding; just a little while ago he made a suicide attempt. And that's what surprised me about Dok, because Dok came pretty close to his own final solution himself. Having experienced suicidal thoughts many times myself I think I have a feel for how nodolan feels.

To Dok's credit I don't think this thread was specifically aimed at nodolan, but I also do wish Dok would have been more considerate of people who have just had their entire world view shatter to pieces and are feeling so disoriented they no longer want to live.

---

No this was not directed at anyone specifically, I am not keeping up enough here to even know who nodolan is to be absolutely blunt.  His posts were lost in an ocean of Ladyhawks posts, along with many others.

Ya, I have been close to snuffin it.  While I have sympathy, and can empathize, I deal with it differently I guess.  I am very hardnosed about it, having been on the recieving end of threats of suicide as a manipulative tactic. Especially because it always comes around that I am fuckin glad I did't.  Things get better, and even though the shit sometimes can go bad and sometimes even worse, you do get tougher, I swear it!  You will be hardened by a battle most people will never even understand.  Fuckin Yay YOU!

This is a support forum, there are people here at varying stages. How is my post inappropriate?  It is directed at anyone who has reached a stage where it is time to make the choice in wallowing, or standing up.  It is also directed at those who are far from it, because I have been in the horrible cesspool also, and I am getting past it.  Shouldn't that be the hope of anyone who is in the early terrifying stages of deconverting?  Getting over, getting past, being able to shrug and say ya, I fucked up buying in to that, oh well, *yawn*  I am gonna go hang out with people who have never been there and not feel the least bit ashamed, I earned some stripes in my journey that they cant even read.  I can breath again.  I whupped christianity, fuckin A!

I swear you can get past it.  It may take a long time from now, but you are not doomed to this fear and pain forever.  Until then, let the rage run, feel your emotions, they are real they deserve to be let out.  Let it out so you can heal.  Someday, you will have an inkling in your heart that something has changed.  Then you are at a crossroad, where you decide if you want this to dominate your life any more, because you are finally at the point when you can put it down.  Don't worry about missing it, it comes around again and again and recognizing it is a progressive skill.  One day you will see it, and it may come as a surprise.    And the way you see the whole experience will change.   Did for me...

Sure you may be changed, but you would have changed if you went another way.  Change is inevitable, you can never be the same person you once were, so dont sweat that.  Just please do not choose to never get over or past it, because you can do that too, and if that is your choice you never will get past and religion/anti religion will dominate the rest of your life. 

And as I said before, hell I could be wrong.  But I could be right too.  Maybe a little of both?  Some of what I say applies?  As for the rest, wipe your ass with my rambling if it makes you feel better and have a nice day.

The foregoing reminds me of a metaphor that several christian preachers were fond of using. "The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints". The problem with the church is that no one is ever expected to be healed and leave the hospital. All are expected to wallow in the illness so that they come back every week for another treatment.

I would hope that walkaway would serve a function similar to that expressed in the aforementioned metaphor. People would come here for healing, but unlike the church, would eventually be cured and be discharged. Perhaps a handful of kind souls would stay behind to act as physicians and counsellors to help those newly "admitted", or would continue to frequent the board as a general discussiona area, but I would hope the vast majority would cease to require any support and would cease the "christian bashing" which is prevalent among new "deconverts". Were I to peruse some of the early posts which I made under my former username, I would be aghast at the visceral hatred I had for all things Christian. In reality, while I consider Christianity to be a false belief system, the vast, vast majority of christians, including fundamentalist christians, are decent people. Naturally, those who have been influenced by the evil among them (the abusers, the rapists, the molesters, etc.) may find my generalisation somewhat off the mark.

This all came to a head for me when Menken's Ghost was carpet bombing the forum.  I got to thinking about the notion of perpetual scab picking and how we sometimes cling too much to the pain of what has bound us.  I understand that people often take years to heal from certain events, sometimes people never fully recover psychologically.

When I hear people say that they've been in therapy for 15 years with the same counsellor I am compelled to ask them "Why?"  If my mechanic couldn't properly repair my car I would certainly go elsewhere.  Thus I haven't been much of a poster on this forum of late.

What works for me won't work for everyone else, I understand that.  Here at WA I have been able to find some things from the posts of others that has helped me get beyond the Point of Know Return with regards to religion.  I took the time to flesh out the questions that I couldn't verbalize and then began answering them in the light of reason.  In time that method brought me peace of mind, closure even.  For me, that time was relatively short as I already had in mind the solution to the problem.

Sometimes people never recover from traumatic events.  I have posted here before how my wife, who was sexually mistreated as a small girl by older relatives carries no emotional scars from these events.  Her comment to me when I asked her why so many we know that have been abused spend their lives in therapy and she hasn't was simply that she chose to get over it.  There wasn't one thing she could have done to avoid the mistreatment nor is there anything that she can do to erase that fact that she was abused.  She simply chooses to live her life outside of the fear of remembrance and recurrence.   I guess you would have to know here intimately as I do to fully understand the strength of her reasoning and character.  She makes sense and she inspires me to do the same with circumstances.  Expect the best, deal with the worst and get on with life after you've washed your hands of the mess.

Anyhoo, when I see the xtians that I work with constantly bombarding their senses with Bibles, Books, music, sermons, Lole Davies (BBN Nazi Bastard Fascist Cow) in a non-stop fashion I understand why they do it.  If they didn't then the whole thing would begin to dissolve into the non-sensical fairy tale that it all truly is.  Should they choose to unplug from that Matrix then most certainly would they experience a traumatic period of adjustment. 

Remember that some take much longer to heal than others.  Some never do heal even though their greatest desire is to get beyond the pain and scars of psychological trauma. 

Sic Semper Tyrannus

My apologies to Dok - I was hasty. I've read your posting several times over and all of the subsequent replies and I do see your point. I have to be honest though and say that just because someone tells you how your path out of xtianity might or should look doesn't take away from what you're feeling right now. If anything it intensifies what you're feeling and adds to it in some ways and sometimes is just a little bit too much to bear.

I recognise that yes I made the decision 'for christ', it was me who 'decided to follow jesus' and all that malarky and I also recognise when I look back that there were some very early warning signs that all was not what it was supposed to be - but I chose whether unknowingly or unwittingly or subconciously I don't know, to ignore them. I desperately needed that xtianity be right and be right for me.

My problem is that the word responsible is too closely bound to the the word blame. When someone tells me that I'm responsible for the mess I'm in (to any degree) my first reaction is to feel that I'm being blamed and deserve some sort of punishment maybe including the punishment of a ruined life and a mentally and emotionally unstable and destructive period in my life - I dunno!

How responsible can a person be who doesn't know any better? I was never given the mental/cognitive tools to think for myself, I was like a dumb animal, I was driven by my emotional needs and the consequences of years of abuse both physical, emotional and verbal sexual abuse. I can honestly say that I did not become self aware enough to break free from xtianity until I was in my 30's. I made the decision to join when I was 21 after years of searching for meaning but how was I to know that I was being duped?

I said to my wife Ciara only a few weeks ago that I haven't felt in touch with reality for more years than I can remember. I've been cognitively dissonant for most of my life and to be frank I'm terrified of what's ahead of me. I have no idea how to proceed since I can't remember or never really experienced a non-cognitively dissonant existence before.

Ironically it was xtianity that gave me some of the cognitive tools that I needed to wrench away from it! All that arguing over doctrines and smug castigating and emasculating of members of other cults and wayward xtians paid off in the end but not the way I thought it would. That's funny to consider, xtianity contains within itself the seeds of it's own destruction in a way.

I suppose what I'm saying is this: the rights and wrongs of my decisions and the consequences of those decisions are, IMO, a seperate issue from taking responsibility for making those decisions. Yes I do now see and accept your point - I am responsible for the choices I made but I plead diminished responsibility because of my ignorance and because of the mess that I was already in both psychologically and emotionally. How's that? Can we compromise? please?

I think you're very brave and strong BTW to hold back from unleashing a torrent of criticism against your relatives - I for one couldn't do that but thankfully I don't have any relatives in there - the closest I'll get to that situation here in Ireland is my mother insisting that our children (if or when we have them) be baptised into the RC church, something both my brother and sister did with their kids despite the fact that non of them believe in it or go to church any more. The problem for them is also that the state education system here in Ireland is run by the RC church and religious education is mandatory and well over 90% of kids make their 1st holy communion and confirmation while in primary school so things get very difficult for non-RC's and the social and family pressures to conform are huge for both parents and kids.

I have to say that even the act of bowing my head for grace would sicken me right now and I don't think I could listen to any god bullshit drivel coming from someone as they say grace.

Xtians have no respect for your beliefs or boundaries so why should we - they agressively trounce your opinions and desecrate your 'holy ground' with their hob-nailed boots - but then that makes us no better than them I suppose - right? However if we aim to be better than them we also open up the possibility of becoming self-righteous like them and insular - so what to do? where to go with it all? If we don't come here and let go of it all here where do we go?

BTW: Does anyone have any resources on cognitive dissonance that they can send my way please?

Hey Voltaire thanks for your input.

BFN Noel.

ps: can anyone tell me what happened to Walk Away @ www.ifas.org?

This is a a support forum for those who have or are in the process of leaving fundamentalist Christianity

As we all know, the above sentence is the stated goal and purpose of this board(or in other terms, its designer and creator.)  But think about it....how often do we REALLY come across a person on this board who is IN THE PROCESS of leaving fundamentalist Christianity?  In July 2003, most statements or thoughts that you see on this board come from people who are in the advanced stages of leaving/withdrawal from fundamentalism.  This board is mostly dominated by a bunch of WA "veterans" who are no longer intensely concerned with the issues that once led them to leave fundamentalist Christianity....issues that originally led us to this forum.

Where does that leave the people who need this forum more urgently than we do.? Well, honestly, I really don't give a fuck where it leaves them...they're just faceless Internet strangers to me....but lets face it....this board can't serve their needs as well as it should....they know that many of us "regulars" have further healed and have gotten further beyond the issues that they themselves are now struggling with in their newfound loss of religious faith.  I think those people are definitely out there, listening, watching....but you rarely hear from them...why would they want to start threads or voice questions that may be met by a bunch of us smug veterans with attitudes such as "yeah, I've been there, done that" or "yeah, that was a really important concern to me....two years ago, anyway.  One day you too will 'get over it and get past it' as I have."

Like the topic of this thread, for example, I sometimes wonder if some of us have adopted a smug or insensitive attitude towards those who are still IN THE PROCESS of leaving fundamentalist Christianity...many of us on this board have experienced a good degree of healing over the last couple of years...but still, there are tons of people out there in Internetland who are leaving or thinking about leaving fundamentalist Christianity.  I'm sure there are people like that who regularly visit this forum...people who are on the edge of "losing their faith" or people who still haven't fully committed themselves to disbelief...."Baby Walk Aways" if you will.   

I know those people are out there, but we rarely seem to hear from them.  Why?  Because, as I said, this board seems to be primarily "dominated" by a bunch of "regulars" who have been coming here for a long time....people like myself who have reached the more "advanced" stages of leaving fundamentalism.  Our scars have healed more...the issue of Christianity and its validity factor isn't as crucial to us as it once was.  Alot of us regulars to this board no longer spend nights lying awake wondering if the Bible MAY actually be true after all...alot of us no longer have panic attacks when we pick up a Bible or hear someone quoting Scripture.  For us, its more part of our past....it still greatly troubles us or triggers us at times (esp. at times when we're confronted with fundie family members) but we no longer spend a significant portion of our thought time thinking about God or Jesus or Bible-related issues or concerns.  Time has helped healed us, and we've moved on, to a degree, thank God. (that was a joke)

Things on this board have changed alot since i first started coming here about a year and a half ago.  Some of the people here who now have 1000 or 2000 posts had only 225 posts back when I first joined.  A year and a half ago, there were much more serious discussions/debates on theological or ethical issues....there were more "hot" topics...religion and Christian fundamentalism still seemed to be in the forefront of the minds of the majority of the board members. 

But now....sometimes Jesus or fundamentalism or the Bible seem to be peripheral issues....many of the "regulars" on this board seem more interested in talking about non-religious issues than they do about going over the same old ground over and over again about how the God and Jesus and Bible thing are all bogus bullshit.  This isn't a bad thing, its good...it shows that this board has been thus far instrumental in accomplishing its stated goal and purpose.

(and since its never said enough....I would like to thank St. Thomas and the mods who oversee this board....I was alot more of a mess a year ago, and I was alot more stressed and incongruous over the loss of my religious faith.  Being able to converse and discuss these issues with other people who were on the same point of the path that I was on was of immense benefit to me....before I found this forum...there was no one I could candidly discuss my loss of faith or other related issues with.  anyway, before I get too melodramatic, I just wanted to say thanks, St.. Thomas....and no, I'm not just saying that in order to kiss your ass and help to ensure that I will continue to be allowed to post more of my sexually perverted rantings on here in the future.)

Anyway, where was I going with all this?  Oh yeah...I just wanted to remind some of us "veterans" (and remind myself as well) that there are people out there who are watching this board....people who haven't really revealed or expressed themselves on here....knowing that the dominant "veteran" members of this board have already discussed and dealt with loss-of-faith-issues and long ago put them on the back burner. 

Some of us seem to have these "newer" Walk Aways in mind.....but others, such as myself, really couldn't give two fucks about them.  Goddamn guys....I couldn't even tell you the last time I read a thread in the Personal Introductions section....or someone who had the courage to start a thread in that section and do just as I did a year and a half ago...publicly announce their loss of faith in Jesus. Maybe thats "bad" or "selfish" or "unaltruistic" for me to be so "neglectful" of those new Walk Aways who have just discovered this forum, I don't know. 

I still remember how much courage it took me to post my own introductory post in that section.....and even though it was on an Internet message board...it was the first and only time that I had come out "publicly" as a doubter of the religious faith that I had once held so dear.  It was such a big step for me, and I gotta say, it meant so much to get on the next day and to read posts from people who had personally responded to my Introductory Post....it showed me that these people understood, maybe they even cared, it showed that they knew where I was coming from...at very least, they took the time and the effort to respond to me....and even though the Bible was still clouding my mind and judgment, I knew that I wasn't alone on my painful journey of losing religious faith.

Anyway, shit, I don't know....what was I getting at....I think what I'm getting at is that some of us no longer NEED this forum anymore....but we just hang around, afraid or unwilling to "clip our wings"...for whatever reason...and we refuse to vacate our seats and leave them to the people who need this forum much more than we do.  If the stated goal and purpose of this forum are still valid and in effect, then frankly, they would be much better served if some of us moved on from here. 

So bottom line....in a nutshell....there's alot of old blood hanging around here.  I'm old blood myself.  Maybe its time for some of the newer blood to sieze the direction of this forum.....to turn this place back into the resource that it was originally designed for.  People like me, I've been helped immensely by this forum...but yet I still hang around here like a floppy tit.....directionless, without a defined goal or purpose for being here....drinking beer and letting my glandular or existential stream-of-consciousness musings take me over so I can relay them into posts.  I don't think thats what St. Thomas had in mind when he first created this forum.  But then again....who really knows what St. Thomas thinks anymore?  The guy stays pretty well hidden nowadays....I'm sure he's busy with alot of personal concerns in his life, but then again...maybe the issue of "Walking Away" isn't as crucial to him anymore, either. 

The thing is, time goes on, life goes on...we all continue to change.  Sometimes I log on here and I think "Wait a minute....why do I no longer care about clicking on threads that discuss the validity of the Bible?  A year and a half ago I woulda devoured that thread with utmost interest...and I woulda spent over an hour typing up my own thoughts on the issue."  Its just funny how much my perspective has changed over the last two years. 

But the thing is, there are people out there who need to discuss and mull over these issues as much as we once did.  That doesn't make us any more "superior" or "advanced" than they are.  It only means that we went through our deconversion process a bit sooner than they did.  And hell, we still have processes and stages to go thru....the issue of life and how to confront it and and preceive it doesn't simply end with "Christianity is bullshit."  I don't know where exactly I'm going from here...I don't know if I'll ever possess a coherent worldview again.  To me, we are rational creatures who dwell in a senseless and irrational universe.  Oh well, anyway, one more beer, and then off to bed.  *smooch*

Reply to : ted5870

I think your post deserves a lot of thought.  Here are a few of my own:

1.  Some of us never were fundamentalists, but have family that are and have to deal with them.  Those that were, still may have family and need ongoing support.

2.  This is a journey that does not have a destination.  Growth does not end when you escape one phase. 

3.  The board would appear friendlier to newbies if the tone weren't so intimidating.

PROPOSED SOLUTION:  dedicate specific forums to newbies and respect them when they post there.  Offer support.  Reserve some forums for more free-wheeling discussions where the old gang can have their fun.  It's not either or. 

Jamie 

Ditto

I wasnt trying to imply that us "veterans" vacate the WA premises.....but I WAS trying to imply that this board may have grown beyond its stated goal and purpose, per St. Thomas...or, in other words, just read the top of this page to see what this forum was ORIGINALLY designed for.

We gotta face it....even though this board has served us well, even though its been a valuable resource to us...its still owned by St. Thomas....and he ends up paying the costs for aimoo or whoever to host this msg board or whatever else is involved.  If St. Thomas so chose, he could terminate this board and account today, and we would be without a msg. board....and be without a place for our minds to meet.

This board isnt some public domain, it isnt some birthright that we are entitled to....the only reason we are here is because St Thomas accepts the financial and operating responsibilities for keeping this board going.  And sometimes, nowadays, since St. Thomas seems so absent from anything to do with this forum....I wonder if he himself has grown indifferent to his goal and purpose which originally gave birth to his forum.  He was the one who created this place, and he did so in light of the stated goal and purpose at the top of this page.  Is he still committed to it?  Does he even know whats going on here nowadays?  Does he really care?

Helloooo, St. Thomas?  Are you still there?  Where the hell are you, man?  This is YOUR show thats being run here.  What is YOUR future vision for this board....do you still take a significant interest in it?  Do you even care what we talk about on here....do you even care anymore who's interests this board primarily serves? Do we need to expand the parameters of what this forum is for....or, as Dok suggested, do we need to rename this forum? 

I guess I'm kinda fascinated by this whole phenomenon here....on most message boards, the mods and the owner are so tyrannical and so controlling that they lock topics and ban members on a daily basis.  But on THIS board, you never seem to encounter any "interference" from the mods or the owner.  This board is pretty much run and regulated by its members, a la mob rule, democratic rule...the mods here are miles away from being on a power/control trip, and that type of situation is damn hard to come across on a msg. board. 

But I will say...I have really grown attached to this place myself.  I have grown and healed thru frequenting this forum...and I've observed its other members grow and heal as well.  I don't have much faith in humanity, but this board has helped show me that perhaps MORE hope in humanity is warrranted. 

A year and a half ago, what I found here were people of similar circumstances and backgrounds who had pulled together...and then had set out to assist one another in their healing from Christian fundamentalism, as well as their personal process of growth away from it.  I was part of that phenomenon, and I will always hold you "regulars" in a special place in my heart.....even though we were miles apart on our keyboard....we shared a mutual experience, we had mutual struggles, we survived our mutual loss of faith in biblegod....we used to talk about that shit in much depth and seriousness....we stood by each other, even if we only did so in cyberspace.  We survived together, and even though this place is "merely" an Internet message board, its hard to just up and leave this place. 

But seriously...its amazing what the human spirit can be capable of.  We've taken Internet message board technology, and we, as individuals from all over the globe, have pulled together as a unit, and we've set out to defeat and overcome our common enemy....our background, history, and indoctrination into Christian fundamentalism.  Due to the relative scarcity of our situation, we couldnt find any local community of support for people such as ourselves, so we took to the Internet. Human beings pulling together to help one another....safety and strength in numbers.  And I like you people....what matters to you is the question of "What is true?" and "What is real?"  After all, those concerns are what led most of us to examine our faith and leave Christian fundamentalism.  Even though religion is no longer a serious factor in any of our lives, I still have a sense that most of us have very similar mindsets and personal values. 

Some of you may be right...there is no reason to jump ship from this forum as soon as you reach the more advanced stages of Walking Away.  But still...I do find it odd that most of the names and people you see on the Personal Introductions section never show their face anywhere on the board ever again.  Maybe us old blood folks aren't stifling them and their expression...it could simply be that most people who join message boards never make it beyond five or ten posts before losing interest or moving on to something else. 

. 

I think the reason why few recent walkaways make it to this forum is that it takes a bit of searching to find it.  I started looking at anti-cult and religious right websites a year ago but did not discover the walkaway forum until March this year.

Our walkaway journeys are individual to us.  Some drift away to more liberal churches, then stop going altogether and later realise christianity is sham while some react and become atheists and years later finding the middle ground.  Since coming to this forum I now realise that my experiences, feelings and thoughts are shared by many others caught up in fundamentalist christianity.  I'm not the only one who's bitter.

A lot of us are moving on but we need support in our new lives so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past.  I'm becoming more involved in the environmental movement; becoming practical rather than merely theoretical and I'm very wary of falling into the fundamentalist new age trap because of my past experiences.  There are other issues in my daily life that I have to deal with at the moment apart from fundamentalist christianity.  For example traffic congestion, pollution, crime, unemployment, job insecurity, low wages and the way women are treated as second class citizens.  However with much thought I believe that the root of these problems lie in the calvinistic work ethic.  People are so desperate to see new jobs coming to Wales they will accept incoming companies at a price; eg more housing needed as staff are brought with the company, only 50% of employees are recruited from the local area and local shops going bankrupt with new stores such as IKEA and Toys R Us moving in.  They are prepared to take a job that pays little more than unemployment benefits.

Where do we go from here?  That is those of us who walked away several years ago and/or are long standing members of the forum.  We could be using our experiences to help others who are yet to walkaway, those who feel depressed and unfulfilled yet who don't attibute it to fundamentalist christianity and young people who are in danger of being proselytised to.  A lot of us were forced to make a decision to be born again without being given a chance to think about it.  It would be great if a few of us start up our own website using the personal experiences and ideas of those who have posted on the forum that are common to a lot of us.  We could even contribute to a book to be published.  That's one of my dreams.  We could also start up localised support groups with people in real life.

Me, I've got a life to catch up on after all those years spent in church.  I don't want to spend too much time on the forum though IME it is addictive and the reason for this is that I don't get an awful lot of support from people as they are either too busy or numbed by psychiatric medication.

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Helloooo, St. Thomas?  Are you still there?  Where the hell are you, man?  This is YOUR show thats being run here.  What is YOUR future vision for this board....do you still take a significant interest in it?  Do you even care what we talk about on here....do you even care anymore who's interests this board primarily serves? Do we need to expand the parameters of what this forum is for....or, as Dok suggested, do we need to rename this forum? 

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Gentle Ted,
Behold, I hear the voices of my children crying out.  Fear not for I hear your cries of anguish and confusion.  I have returned from a long sojourn in the wilderness.  Please stand by while I sort though all this superfluous paraphernalia, gather my wits about me, and find the time to prepare an adequate response.

The time for judgement is nigh.  Please stand by.....

Ok, disclaimer, am a bit tipsy and, being a habitual skimmer, have not read all of the recent posts . . .

Also, forgive my usage of the plural to refer to unnamed persons.

But, I thought that as an old regular (I think I can claim that title), I do want to say that . . .

It is really an exercise in futility for one regular member to criticize another's regular presence here.  If we get something out of this place, we stay.  If we need it, we come back.  Whether or not we should need it . . . well, maybe I shouldn't have eaten that piece of chocolate cake, maybe I didn't need it, but I am going to barf if we begin discussing the severity and legitimacy of my need.

In all social situations, there are others that irk us.  There are people that complain too often, or tell stories too loudly, or completely drop the conversation ball when we swat it their way.  I admit, I am big believer in summarizing, and I get irritated when people go into too much detail about their daily humdrum experiences.  But still, this is a support forum.  If someone asked for advice or reassurance and I thought, "Oh come on, get over it," I just didn't respond.  I will go ahead and criticize the criticizer . . . why not just ignore it?  If someone is unstable and really, truly depending upon this forum for their main emotional support, why jump their throats?  To be honest, I agree that some people here wallow too much in the ex-fundy experience.  But I have never found someone's direct assault on me to be helpful at all.  We all respond to a direct criticism with defensive tactics.  It takes well-timed and clever insight to help a friend see the light.  This means biting one's tongue a lot.

I for one found that my need to be here lessened with time.  When I was raw and felt alone, I visited here daily.  Then I began to feel the need to break away from my, ironically, break away support group.  I couldn't allow my ex-fundyism to be such a focus anymore.  And I couldn't commit myself to holding up the still vulnerable, since I didn't feel that I could totally relate or that I was a sufficient bastion of self-support myself.  I don't know.  But I thought that tonight, in the midst of the current posts, I could be an example of what this forum is really about.

Of course I love you guys.  I know your screen names.  I know your personalities and your personal situations.  I have appreciated the words of encouragement and support.  But my interactions with true, power-wielding fundies have decreased into almost non-existence.  I no longer live with fundies or hang out with fundies.  I regularly tell stories to my new, non-religious friends that include the phrase, "Back when I was very religious . . ."  I don't go to church.  Ok, just for the record, my old small group leaders spent the night in my apartment during a weekend in town when I was away.  I admit that I hid some walking away books to avoid unmasking myself (I haven't seen them or really heard from them for two years . . . why bother?  But at the same time, they are poor and were good friends, why not offer a place to stay?).  But anyway, the point is, fundamentalism really lost its grip on me.  I agree that if people are using this forum as a way to reignite their anger (hey, sometimes I like feeling anger -- all that adrenalin -- this might happen), they might want to consider moving on.  But  I feel that I am an example of it happening in its own time.  If you had told me this before I was ready, I would have just felt that you were pompous, insensitive, and out of line.

All of the good decisions I have made in my life, I just knew that they were right . . . who to date, where to go to college, where to live, what job to take.  When I have felt fear or guilt when making a decision (hello commitment to Christ!), it has pretty much always been shit.  In this case, I just felt the need to move on.  If you don't feel that, why force it?  After all, in our highly evolved and technological society, we are no longer exerting all our energy in the effort to survive and reproduce.  We need to create stimulation and community.  If this is it for you, then adapt it to your current level of growth and healing.  Maybe begin focusing on more self-lessly supporting others.  But it is really the pot calling the kettle black to criticize others' presences here and be one of the top posters yourself.  Reading the current, "You post too much!  You're too needy" and "What?  Now I'm leaving.  Really, I'm not coming back," posts have made me remember why I stopped feeling that this place gave me something I needed in the first place.  I don't mean to be harsh to anyone.  But this is silly. 

*I'm a jerk*

Ted, I find it disappointing that you would say that to me.  Were you trying to provide an example of the point I was making?  (Actually, I don't think I was as coherent as possible last night, so who knows if I actually made any points).

If I have made new friends, why shouldn't I tell you all?  Didn't you all support me when I was stuck with mostly fundies for friends (well, to be honest, I think it was others, and rarely you, who offered real encouragement and support, although I think you have your own way of reaching out to others)?  Why wouldn't that be a good goal to have or accomplishment to share?  Why the resentment?  I really don't understand.  It's one thing to roll your eyes at me and scoff to yourself.  But you were trying to irk and hurt me.  Why? 

This is familiar.  I experienced a negative reaction from people who had sure acted like they cared about me six weeks ago when I got a new teaching job.  I was at this horrible middle school where the principal was so incompetent that 1/3 of the staff turns over a year (obviously I did not know this when I took the job).  I went on several transfer interviews (which I had to finagle despite my principal's disapproval and a three year waiting period), and everyone at school was super sweet asking me how it was going and telling me how great they were sure my interviews went and blah blah blah, and then when I actually got a good high school job, I received about 1 and a 1/2 congratulations.  People said, "Oh, that's nice" and walked away.  I understand.  There were people who had taught there for a whole lot longer than a year who hated it.  I'm sure they would have gotten a transfer if they could.  But we don't usually think about it that way, do we?  When somebody does something that we wish we had done ourselves, we come up with all sorts of reasons why it was unfair, invalid, stupid in the first place, etc., etc.  I swear I was like a celebrity before I had a job (everyone knew I was quitting either way), being stopped by people I didn't know asking me about my transfer, and then I was resented for carrying through with it.  Yes I was bragging, but I didn't tell anyone who hadn't expressed interest or concern in the first place.  I value compassion, and I discovered who had it and who didn't by whether or not they were truly happy for me.

Disclaimer:  Maybe you know more about me than I do myself, because some of the specifics of my life that you referred to I wasn't familiar with.  I claim to know even less of your life.  I'm just hypothesizing about why you would say that.  I don't know if you have many friends to hang with where you live or not.  I hope you have as many as you want.  I actually don't.  I made one really good friend this year.  He's a guy, and I wish I had some real good female friends.  When I get married, I'll have to stretch to fill my bridesmaids.  I've just been going out more.  It's better than being alone.  A lot better.  I figure that going out will lead to more friendships than sitting alone in my apartment will.

Fundamentalism is not a disease that can be declared cured.  This forum would be really really silly if I weren't welcome here just because I felt better and wanted to keep up with you guys at the same time.  In some ways, I know you all.  I wouldn't want just to drop off the face of the forum without a note as to why.  From my profile, it seems I've been visiting about once a month.  How about if I announce that I will be scarce, but may visit once a month?  Does this forgive the horrible sin of visiting again after saying I won't be visiting as much anymore?  No, I'm sure that isn't any better.  That was never the issue.

I'll come right out and say it.  I'm proud of myself.  Up until the last couple of years, I never had to fight for anything.  And then suddenly I found myself immersed in a crazy religious system without friends who could understand.  And then later I found myself stuck in jobs I didn't love.  So I changed things.  I evaluated what I could and couldn't control.  I did what I could to make myself happier.  A lot of people don't.  They wallow in it.  They complain about the people who got transfers and never apply for one themselves.  It's like I'm one of those people who lost fifty pounds on some exercise plan.  I want to share my story.  Weight loss is not going to just fall into your lap.  Neither is happiness.  You have to grab it for yourself or watch it slip by.

This forum really helped me.  Yes, I need it a lot less than I did at one point.  But I will always think of it fondly.  And I will always believe that, misguided or not, I have a responsibility to help others here as others have helped me.

I just noticed that you actually ended your post with some sort of "At least I'm not you," statement.  Hey, don't knock it til you've tried it.  Maybe it's not friends for you.  Maybe it's moving to Mexico or writing a book or joining a gym.  This existence is not easy.  But I believe in you -- you need to go for what you want or die trying.  It's just too much of a waste not to.  Then you really have to stretch to find ways to fill the minutes and hours of your life -- like trying to squash the youthful idealism of some girl you don't even know.