Welcome to walkaway.

I come from a Seventh-day Adventist background, but like you, I never really felt the shackles of the religion as I too pretty much did what I pleased. Moreover, I'm actually glad that I grew up in a non-smoking, non-drinking environment as I never ended up picking up these habits.

I got married in the church at a time I believed firmly in everything they taught. Three years later I was ready to walk away, but my wife wasn't. I faked it for two more years - then my wife announced to me one day that she didn't want to attend church any more. For her, the reasons were more personal than intellectual, but the effect was the same; we both ended up walking away together.

One of the difficulties with "fundamentalist" or "inerrantist" religions is the belief that those who have left will go to hell. If your wife or other family members believe that you are going to hell, it will be difficult to maintain certain aspects of the relationship. If she's already told you that she's OK with whatever you decide, you're off to not a bad start.

You will need alot of patience and you'll have to be especially understanding with those who still cling to biblical inerrancy if you don't wish to alienate them.

I found this board to be especially useful in working through these issues myself.

Welcome abord.

Reply to : sayso

Welcome sayso.  Some great thoughts here and similar to my situation in some ways.

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  I believed the bible was inerrant.   My church taught this.  My pastor, who is about as smart and educated as a pastor can be, believes this.   But the day I realized the bible simply is not inerrant is when the strings started to fray.

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Yes.  The Bible is certainly not inerrant.  I think this idea is perhaps the greatest strength and also the greatest flaw of contemporary Christianity.  This idea does hold things together quite well but when the flaws start to appear, like you say, "the strings start to fray".

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The wacky ways you always seem to see believers portrayed in movies (like in "Contact").

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I'm glad you said this because I feel the same way about those scenes.  I have never encountered fundamentalists like this.  I think the movie would have done a much better job if this had been a little closer to the fanatics I have encountered.  Like me for instance when I was still a fundy.

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 I found a great wife... very loving and affectionate.     But our marriage was built around our faith.   I feel horrible that I've dragged her into my new world.    She knows of my doubts.   So does my family.  But I don't think any of them know how far along I am.   I still attend church with my wife simply to make her happy.   I really don't want to disappoint her, but I can't fake it forever. 

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My marriage as well was built around our faith.  When I walked away after 21 years of marriage it was a great shock to my wife and kids.  But at the same time I was still the same person with most of the same ideas I had when I was a Christian.  When my wife fell in love with me, she fell in love with me completely not just my underlying belief systems.  When I walked away I could logically explain to her why I believed the way I did now.  It was all there anyway but just under the surface.  We have spent hours upon hours discussing what we believe and usually have a pretty good time doing it.  So don't be horrified.  Though alot of things have changed at the same time alot of things have stayed the same.

As far as going to church is concerned I think that spiritual continuity is vital to a successful family.  Going to church with her is the right thing for your marriage and future family.  But there are many options for the future and you will both need to grow together.  This can be a wonderful growing experience for the both of you.

Here is what happened for me.   My wife listened to what I had to say and considered all that I felt and believed and understood to be true.  She still remains a Christian but no longer attends church.  We occationally pray together, regularly meditate together, and for the most part believe many of the same things about the spiritual.  If she insisted on going to church I would insist on us finding a non-fundamentlist spiritual group of some sort.  But for now we spend our days pursuing the spiritual in new ways apart from any organized religion.

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  The line between faith and reason snapped already and I can't imagine going back even if I wanted to. 

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Same for me.  I think that this is a solid reality for the person who truely walks away.  I know all the ideas of Christianity but I know I could never buy into most of what is taught.  My wife is pretty comfortable with our differences in belief.   We accept each other right were we are at and I can say that we are actually closer today than we have been for years.

-Exit

Thanks John_Gualt.    Saw a documentary on Ayn Rand recently that was fascinating.  I'm actually reading a book right now titled "Why People Believe Weird Things" and that writer slams the current "leaders" of Rand's organization for thinking they are the only right way.  Something to that effect.  Anyway, I've yet to get through "Atlas Shrugged".

Hell.  Yeah, I'm sure the only reason my family will struggle with my major doubting is where I might end up one day.  My mother has already mailed me three books over the past year as well as a few "pleading" emails.   I'm not going to debate with my family... at least not unless they want that.   I'm not here to rock the boat.   For family and relatives it's not that big of  a deal to me.   I know deep down my parents would never disown me or anything like that.   My aunt talked to her pastor about me... someone I don't even know and he mailed me a book to read.    Some people would be steamed about that, but I really find theology discussions interesting... even if I quit believing most of it.    Anyway, rocking the boat is simply going to happen and I can handle this with every person alive, but I'm not wanting that with my spouse.   I find it interesting what your wife did one day.   To be honest, I think I'd feel a little guilty if she left church because it would have happened because of me.    Her family is as fundified as mine is (and probably in a more intense way).     

I haven't even brought up the issue of children, which we have planned for one day. But I feel like I don't want kids as long as they'd be getting mixed messages.

Thanks Exit.   But you still do believe in or try to live a "spiritual" life?   I mean, I really have the absolute hardest time praying right now.   I don't see the point... other than to make my wife happy.    A couple of weeks ago my mother and grandmom were visiting us and we sat down for a meal.   I felt so uncomfy because I knew what was next.   My wife said, "Why don't you say the prayer?"    Uh, we don't pray when it's the two of us!   I just never did this even when I was single because I prayed a lot in the morning anyway, including thanking for the food provided that I'd eat later.   Anyway, the way I felt as I prayed in front of everyone felt so bizarre.   I'm sure my Mom wasn't happy that I gave one of those little, "God is good" prayers... but what can ya do?   The next day when it was time to pray over a meal I told my wife to do it.  Hope my grandmom wasn't clueing in to all this.

I'm impressed you have maintained a solid relationship with your wife despite your differences.   Marriage is hard even when things are right.   Differences are natural, but spiritual matters are so ingrained and that's why I'm a little concerned.   Thanks for telling me of your experience.

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Thanks Exit. But you still do believe in or try to live a "spiritual" life? I mean, I really have the absolute hardest time praying right now.

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Yes I do have a spiritual life but very different from what it was when I was a Christian.  I think that a spiritual component to life is vital to my existence.  I didn't pray for at least a year when I walked away.  But then I ran into some really difficult situations that were just too big for me to handle.  I needed to let them go and the only way I could was through prayer.  My prayers however were not directed to a particular god or diety.  Just put out there and let go of.  It helped.  I didn't need to pray all the time or for others nor for my food.  Man, praying for my food seems so stupid now.

I see myself as somewhat different from many people here but at the same time I am very comfortable here.  This board was the single most important support system I had when I walked away.  It helped me enormously.

I am no longer a Christian.  I describe myself as a Taoist.  I have always believed most if not all of Taoisms ideas.  I do not buy into religious Taoism with its culturally influenced dieties and multifaceted superstitions.  I believe there are components of this life that transcend our five senses and it is in relationship to this realm that I am refering when I say that I have a spiritual life.

As far as praying goes, a prayer before meal could be looked at as a courtesy or good manners.  I have prayed for food and times together with family in the context of what is good manners when it is what is expected.  I do pray differently than they do though.  I think it is only right for me to be as dogmatic as they are-is it not?  So I pray something like, "God, thank you for this food and this time together with those we love.  May our conversations and feelings be a blessing to each other as we grow together in our spiritual understanding of this life.  Amen."  I just make it up as I go along and seek to be as honest as I possibly can.  I try not to be preachy.  If you really don't want to pray you will have to always be explaining why you don't want to.  And that gets so tiring.  I find it easier to just put up with some things in life.

  Gradually, year by year I have been making it plain that I am no longer a believer in Christianity.  In fact I think my Christmas cards this year will feature a Yin/Yang symbol.  Haha... that should ruffle a few feathers.  Inside I may say,  "this Christmas may you hold to the center." Most will not know what that means, but they will sure see that my belief system is different from what it once was.

Peace.

-Exit

Just wanted to say hi and say that I too seem to be one of the few on here (similar to EXITONLY that still maintains a faith. I am equally as clouded on it and to the true identity of God, but that does not detract me from the belief that there is a God. I have already undergone some serious debate with certain members about why I believe still. My thing was that I let go of the institution, religion per se, which I believe to be built under the same premises as corporations and government with clear hierarchical foundations as strong hypocrisy. I just wanted to say something about you mentioning whether or not you have kids. You said you aren't sure due to the fact that you are concerned they will grow confused as to whether they should adopt your brand of faith or your wife's brand . . . . . . My girlfriend (cyranothe2nd is also on this board and we've had discussions about this as well. She walked away and we debate frequently and fervently about the existence of God. Remember this, opening up the world to children having parents of differing beliefs is not a bad thing. Children are more independent thinkers than once believed, and more autonomy is being granted unto them this day and age as it pertains to religion. I would suggest that you don't decide against having children based solely on the worry that they will become befuddled by two different perspectives on God in your household, much in the same manner that I would advise against couples having children to solidify their marriage, give meaning to thier own lives or because the church says or doesn't say so.

Reply to : sayso

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Greetings from a ________. I don't know whatI am right now! I have just spent the past 12 months watching my faith crumble due almost soley to intellectual doubting. I've studied and pondered and read and pondered and slowly realized I don't believe what I once believed. And instead of a satisfying conclusion, at the moment I'm bummed and not sure where to go next.... if anywhere. I never considered my faith to be close to the stereotypical image of a fundamentalist. Even if I WAS one I never liked that tag. Even in my strongest feelings/views on faith I shied away from charismatic actions. I've always found televangelists cheesy and nothing like the Christianity I wanted to be around. And so I ended up in a great church with great friends.... solid teaching. 

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>Just wanted to say hi and say that I too seem to be one of the few on here (similar to EXITONLY that still maintains a faith.<

I am one of the few who holds on to certain aspects of a faith (although even most liberal Christians say I am far too liberal), I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a "creative intelligence" that one could label God, Goddess, Universal Spirit, whatever, and I like the philosophy of the "Golden Rule" and other spiritual ideas of Jesus.  Too complicated to really explain.  However, my extremely liberal beliefs about sex and sexuality, individual rights for people of all or no religious beliefs, and the fact that I believe that a person needs no religion or belief to be a good and complete human being cause most Christians to say I dare not begin to call myself anything resembling "Christian".  My thought is, I could care less what they say I should or should not call myself, I am who I am. 

I'm not posting as much lately due to the fact that my life is in major uproar right now; I am struggling to get paid several grand in back pay from my employer, and work out some agreement that will enable me to be paid for what I do.  That, plus I have a week (no make that three days) to find a new apartment.  And, I am back in the music business again, lead singing in a band doing two rehearsals a week and several concerts a month, with a possible industry Showcase for a label in July.  Plus all kinds of other things going on.  But I still drop in as often as I can. 

>You said you aren't sure due to the fact that you are concerned they will grow confused as to whether they should adopt your brand of faith or your wife's brand . . . . . . <

I can say that when I eventually do have kids I want them to decide for themselves what is right for them.  I DO want to make sure that they learn to think for themselves-not let anyone tell them what "the Truth" is, but to teach them basic ethics, and beyond that allow them to find their own truth.  I will do my best to shield them from being sucked in and brainwashed by fundyism.  Just I would protect them from child molesters and predators of all types; the way some fundy groups manipulate the kids and terrorize them with hell and the devil is nearly as bad as physical abuse.   IMHO fundys who try to terrorize children into a belief system (e.g., "If your Mommy and Daddy don't 'make a decision for Jesus' they will go to hell when they die and you will never see them again"-I have seen that exact thing said) are as predatory as those who would physically abuse a child, and the classmates who invite them to a revival I view as the ones who would invite them to a party where they can sample addictive narcotics.    There is, however, IMHO a major, major difference in one parent being a Christian and one being an atheist or of a different faith, and a parent who is a fundamentalist who is determined that their kids believe the same as they do out of terror their child's souls are in eternal peril.   

It seems to me that many people think that leaving christianity/fundamentalism means that you also leave spirituality.  To my mind this couldn't be further from the truth.  For one thing, I left christianity/fundamentlaism because of its lack of real spirituality!!!  Spirituality is one thing I was looking for there and didn't find.  Christianity is such a circus, sideshow, fake, lie, etc.  It promises so much but delivers nothing.

When I first walked away I did seperate myself from almost all spiritual endeavors.  But as I continued on in life I began to reestablish my spirituality.  I did this taking care to not allow any of my past fundy indoctrination influence me.  This is no easy task and I still check myself when I find I am drifting in a wrong direction.

I considered attending some alternative gatherings in town here, but then I asked myself why.  Isn't this just more of what organized religion is all about?  ditto to what mistercy says about churches being like corportions and governments.  They are nothing more than self propogating businesses that prey on the gullible of this world.  There are some organizations that I do think have good intentions.  But for the most part religion is mainly about money and control.

More comments?  I would like to hear.

-Exit

>For one thing, I left christianity/fundamentlaism because of its lack of real spirituality!!!  Spirituality is one thing I was looking for there and didn't find.<

I can totally relate to that.  In fact, fundy (hardcore fundy) and conservative evangelical (which I now call "fundy lite" and identify as any church that attests that they are "open minded" (i.e., lots of members with piercings and tattoos and into heavy metal so on and who claim to be inclusive, but when it comes to certain things, such as the superiority of males, mandatory heterosexual monogamy or abstinence or indulgence followed by self hate and guilt, anti-any-other-religion, etc etc etc they maintain the "love the sinner, hate the sin and subversively-cover-them-in-guilt-for-it-every-possible-chance-you-get" garbage) churches are the most anti spiritual places I have ever encountered. 

I did not cultivate any real and honest sense of spirituality, or at least one that felt sincere and genuine to me personally, until I had left fundy and conservative Christian thought completely.  It was discarding the idea that the Bible was in any way "literally true" or "inerrant" and taking a totally different look at things that created the sense of spirituality  I have.  I had to look at everything-and it was in looking at reality and other religions and belief systems as well as reading all those "dangerous books" the fundies don't want  you to that I actually grew to believe there is "something more" than the extremes of "born live die rot" or, "born live die be judged and go to heaven or hell".  Does my current spirituality give me "all the answers" as fundyism and born-again evangelical Christianity boldly says it does?  No.  But it helps me to deal with the craziness of life a little better on a personal level. 

In re something you said about "organized groups":  I have found a few liberal churches that were absolute gems.    Church I belong to but rarely attend is a part of the United Church Of Christ (which is a very liberal denomination to begin with) but feels more Unitarian to me, sermons are very Unitarian/Agnostic yet there are traditional things such as Communion open to everyone (regardless of whether they believe or not) interpreted a shade differently, gospel music but with altered lyrics, guest speakers from other religions (Hindu priestesses, rabbis, Sikhs).  Not as many people as the gigantic fundy corporate feeling megachurches around here that use fear and guilt to fill their pews and their pockets, just a group of diverse, real human beings who come together and share experience and lean on one another in time of need.  Only reason I stopped going had nothing to do with the teachings, there were just a few people there I did not get along with, long story.  Money or control were not even on their minds there.  The offerings all went towards basic expenses to keep the church alive and a fund that really did help people in need, I can attest to that because I was one of them.  But I will say that a few churches really are decent.  It's funny, I think the reason you see so few churches that are about REAL love, charity, and compassion and so many of the fundy money machines, is that the non-fundy ones care more about people that profits.        

Hi,

Well I initially came here to put up an ad for a make money type o thing but then I saw what this forum was about. Reading your posts just saddened my heart. No greater victory for the devil is to turn one of God's followers back over to his side. All I can think is that maybe you were exposed to a religion that didn't teach the truth, or a denomination that construes the real message. God is real and he does love us, we aren't exempt from trials because we believe, infact we may have to endure more strugles than most because when we believe it is a smack in the face to the devil. Many of you have stated that the bible just unravels but yet we are seeing prophecy fulfilled. The bible does not unravel or fray, it is divinely interlinked the Old points to the New and the New fulfills the Old and fortels of the future.

The message is that God is Love and he sent his Son Jesus Christ to sae us all of our sins. We are to give worship and praise because He is worthy, and I have been in close fellowship and have seen his grace, mercy and charity.

Ya know, I was sitting this morning just thinking about God and trying to think of how someone could not believe that there is someone who created us and gives us the privalege to be alive. I was thinking "Now if there were no such thing as God, then why do we die? Wouldn't we be just like a car, fix the part that is broken and then we are up and running again. How can a doctor do everything that is available to him/her, do everything humanly possible and still this person die?" and I came up with an answer, it is because we are made of flesh, flesh is corruptable. Flesh can not be our driving force, if it were then we would be just like machines. Then I thought about the soul. There has to be something in us greater, that drives us, that is the essence of "us". Now I thought "Well I already summed up that flesh is corruptable , flesh can't even control flesh so where does the soul come from? There has to be someone who controls when we die, when we love, where we go..and the only answer is God."

Ohh please all of you, re think your positions. If you have been saved, washed by the blood of Jesus Christ, then you are saved forever, you are in Jesus's hand and Jesus is in His Father's hand to never be removed. If you are saved then you are no longer judged by your sins but by your works. Please don't push someone who is on the edge, over to the side of no return. Now if you are not saved then I would search my heart, Jesus is the only way to eternal life in heaven. Please remember everything that you have read from the Bible, think "Am I wanting to stop believing this just because it is easier, there are fewer restrictions, I can do what I want to do and don't have to wory about consequences?" God will forgive you when you fall, he will even pick you back up if you ask. Please remember that God wishes for none of His children to perish, he wishes none of you to go to hell.

God Bless you all, I will be praying for you all,

Velisha

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Hi,Well I initially came here to put up an ad for a make money type o thing

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Nothing like acting out of good old fashioned Christian motives.

I think you've posted in the wrong place. It is not fair to corrupt a person's introduction with proselytizing typical of what they are fleeing.

Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant.
-- H. L. Mencken, Minority Report (1956), quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Hiya Sayso,

Welcome aboard, Sir !

I guess most of us have had a pretty bumpy ride at some point in our walkaway. It's pretty devastating and disorienting to suddenly find that the things you once put so much stock in, the core beliefs that you have and really so much sand pouring through your fingers.

I wasn't a believer when I met my wife, but saw the light, converted, and eventually we married. For twenty years we were both devout spirit filled, god fearing etc... and then the ediface started to crumble for me.  I hid my doubts for several months then realised that for the vast majority of my adult life, virtually everything I knew came from a christian source: books, lectures, films, music...  I started reading non-christian literature, particularly scientific stuff and realised that many of the things that were dear to me just were not true. 

I kept quiet for a while, but eventually my wife sussed me out (pretty observant these females!)  She believed for a while, but having had long conversations, eventually came to similar conclusions to myself. I must stress that she's a clever cookie and one very independent woman. She came to the same conclusions under her own steam.  The whole family eventually deconverted.

Yes, for a while it was weird, uncomfortable even. Realising that there isn't  a nice sky daddy etc, eternal life etc, is a pretty serious blow to the mind, but reality and self-integrity are worth far more than maintaining a deluded fairy story.

I once preached the "peace of Jesus" and that "Jesus sets you free".  Honestly, I've never felt freer, happier and more fulfilled than I have since I dumped it all.  Truth sets you free !

In my travels I dumped fundamentalism first, then christianity, dabbled in hinduism, and considered the paranormal... until I realised that I was simply looking for another set of mumbo-jumbo to replace the previous one. 

Some folks here do find another spiritual home for themselves, something that they find fulfilling, and that's fine. For me, I've turned to science and scepticism.

Don't be so hard on yourself with your wife, you married for all the right reasons.  You've hit a crossroads in your life that I bet you certainly didn't predict and probably didn't even want. It's not as if you've married under false pretenses or anything.  Challenges can make marriages stronger.

I wish you the very best and hope that you'll continue to read the the posts, there's some really nice folks here, and contribute as and when you feel the need.

Cheers from over the pond,

Mark

Reply to : _FoXx_

After all the years (decades in some cases) we've spent listening to this old rhetoric, don't you think we've heard it all before and have grown weary of it?

Do yourself a favour, Velisha, and go preach somewhere else. Better still, use that energy and enthusiasm to really make a difference - helping the sick and needy for example.  One of the biggest regrets of my life is the massive amounts of time, energy and money that i poured into "spreading the word".  If I'd only spent that on helping people instead of helping brainwash them.

Mark

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For god so loved the world that he condemns the vast majority to the fires of hell for making the wrong choice. The child molester and murder that repents on his deathbed goes to heaven. The caring hindu or athiest that spends their entire life in the service of others fries in hell. Some justice.

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Hi,Well I initially came here to put up an ad for a make money type o thing but then I saw what this forum was about.

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Humph.  An owner of another Aimoo forum intending to spam this forum.  I'm not sure which spam would be worse:  the make money crap you though about or the Jebus garbage that you actually left.  No proselytizing is allowing within this forum, so please desist.  We've heard it all before, and we're all done with it.

And, yes, God/Jebus is love.  Unless you're gay.  Or lesbian.  Or you're from a people not part of God's chosen and you get enslaved.  Or maybe annihilated.  Or maybe  you eat a piece of fruit and condemn all of humanity.  Or you curse your mother or father.  Or you're a sorceress.  Or you're an animal and a human forced you to have sex.  Or you work on the Sabbath.  Or you're a child that calls a prophet "bald-head."  Or you're a Midianite prisoner-of-war who is not a young virgin girl.  Or you're a young woman who has premarital sex.  Or you're a concubine whose master gives you over to strangers for a gang rape.  Or maybe you just happen to tick off God/Jebus.  If you do any of those things, you're totally screwed.

Otherwise, God loves you with all his fucking heart.

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Hi,Well I initially came here to put up an ad for a make money type o thing but then I saw what this forum was about. Reading your posts just saddened my heart. No greater victory for the devil is to turn one of God's followers back over to his side. All I can think is that maybe you were exposed to a religion that didn't teach the truth, or a denomination that construes the real message. God is real and he does love us, we aren't exempt from trials because we believe, infact we may have to endure more strugles than most because when we believe it is a smack in the face to the devil. Many of you have stated that the bible just unravels but yet we are seeing prophecy fulfilled. The bible does not unravel or fray, it is divinely interlinked the Old points to the New and the New fulfills the Old and fortels of the future.The message is that God is Love an

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Hi FoXx,

I am sorry that you feel so sad and I like many others here can truely identify with the sorrow you feel.  Many of us here have sorrowed and prayed for those who walked away and we realize that the pain and compassion is real and truely honorable.  But we now realize that this pain and sorrow for the "lost" or the "backslidden" is the result of what we were taught to believe under Christianity.  We are happy, moral, free and joyous individuals seperate from Christianity.  You really have nothing to be sorrowful over.  But I suppose that this makes no sense to you.

Let me put it another way: A few years back I would have written a post very similar to yours if I had come upon this forum.  I have changed and gladly so.   Realize that I was a devout Christian for over 20 years.  I truly understand what you are saying, but your appeals hold absolutely no weight with me.  Please don't write me off as deceived.  The decision to walk away from Christianity and Jesus Christ is no easy one to make.  Does hell await me?  Will I fall into gross sin and corruption?  Am I leading others away from Christ and into eternal damnation?  How do I leave all my friends in the church?  How do I tell them that I no longer believe and I think that they too are wrong in their beliefs like I once was?  These  are among the hundreds of questions that cross the ex-believer's mind.

I could pose similar concerns toward you as a believer:

(((((Reading your post just saddened my heart. No greater victory for the church and its leadership is to turn one of God's creations back over to their side. All I can think is that  you are just like I used to be and believe that you are in a religion that  teaches the truth. . .           No one knows if God is real nor if this God loves us or not, trials come upon all people and to believe that you may have more trials because you are a believer is one of the many lies that you have accepted as truth.  Along with the idea that there is a devil.  Have you ever asked yourself if maybe there really isn't a devil?  Maybe much of this stuff I believe is not true?  I'm sure you have.  And each time you thought it you fought off the thought with the idea that thinking like that is all a trick of Satan to lead you away.  Think about it.  What is really going on here?  

You mentioned seeing prophecy fullfilled.  Give me some examples of prophecy that is being fullfilled and also tell me how fullfilled prophecy should be influencial in making a decision to follow Christ?  I can think of one scriptural argument.  I can think of no convincing argument.   The bible does unravel and fray if you take some time to really search out the truth.  If you always surround yourself with people who argue for and support one view, you will never hear the real questions that should be asked.  This is why I spend time listening to many points of view and I am amazed at what I discover.  It's a big world outside the church walls.

Your openess about what you believe and your reflections on flesh and dying are really quite wonderful.  They are great observations that you have made about this world and what we are has humans.  They are ideas that you came to seperate from the Bible and Christianity though you do evaluate them from a Christian perspective.  You mention a soul, an essence and that there has to be a God.  I don't necessarily disagree with you.  There is much that we don't know and though we may never know doesn't mean we should not seek. )))))

Perhaps some of what I said here holds no weight for you.  If so, then you have a little taste of how some of your post comes across to us.  You are talking "apples" and we are talking "oranges".  If we can both speak the same language, then we can communicate.  Seriously, the arguments that the church puts forth for fulfilled prophecy and inerrancy of the Bible are truly weak.  When I first walked away I was sure that the arguments for Christianity would be pretty firm.  I must say I was sadly dissappointed.  One dodge my Josh McDowell (concerning historical evidence for the existence of Christ) was outright disgusting.  If what you believe is so firm then you should have nothing to fear from questioning your belief system.  If however you cannot withstand ideas that challenge your beliefs I suspect that your faith is based upon ideas that are not as reliable as you suppose.

Best wishes,

-Exit

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Reply to : _FoXx_Hi,Well I initially came here to put up an ad for a make money type o thing but then I saw what this forum was about. Reading your posts just saddened my heart. No greater victory for the devil is to turn one of God's followers back over to his side. All I can think is that maybe you were exposed to a religion that didn't teach the truth, or a denomination that construes the real message. God is real and he does love us, we aren't exempt from trials because we believe, infact we may have to endure more strugles than most because when we believe it is a smack in the face to the devil. Many of you have stated that the bible just unravels but yet we are seeing prophecy fulfilled. The bible does not unravel or fray, it is divinely interlinked the Old points to the New and the New fulfills the Old and fortels o

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Exit Only,

I would just like to thank you for the respect that you have shown in your response to my post. Yes I know it is hard for us to communicate such a subject since you seem to know everything that I will tell you and you have turned away from it but I will try anyway.

Well let's start with why I know that there is God and Jesus and the Holy ghost. Did I mention before that I was(used to be) a practicing witch? Well, if I didn't then I guess you know now. I worshiped other "Gods" (Satan really, and yes he is real) and felt power, strength, control, freedom and it was exhilerating but there was no peace. I would conjur spells (and yes it is real, not some poppycock that you see on tv.) and preform rituals and I even considered joining a coven. I thought I was happy, I was so cool and unique but it only lasted for a while and then I would have to go do another spell or another sacrifice just to make me happy. I always had to do something more to be happy, it was like a drug, the high would only last for a while. Then one day I just couldn't take it anymore, I felt so alone and that all I amounted to was this pitiful person whom had alienated everyone she once loved and I just knew something had to change. I immedialey thought of a friend that I had once had and I told my husband that I needed to talk to him. (My husband had always believed and has been my saving grace many times.) It was 12 o'clock at night and I just knew he would be in bed so I said that I would wait. My husband, knowing that if I didn't act now I wouldn't act at all said, "If you are meant to talk to Weldon, if this is what you feel you need to do then he will be awake". So we make the long drive and sure enough he was awake and he said that he had tried to sleep but something just kept him up. So at first we just catch up and I try to hide the real reason that I was there, I fought it, I felt embarassed that I was even there. Then all of the sudden I was just overcome with grief that I blurted out " I am scared of dying and going to hell !!" I cryed like a child, I will never forget it. I told him what I had done and also of the fears that I had about my sister saying she was bi-sexual, I told him all. So then we prayed together and on that very night I was saved. This time I had really accepted Jesus into my heart to change my life. (Mind you, I thought I was already saved but I suddenly knew that it was only in my head, not in my heart. I heard a saying once that rang so true for me: "Did you know that most people go to hell because of only 18 inches". I said "What!" He said "Yes, the space that it is between your head and your heart". I thought that was so profound) Well back to the story, Instantly my life changed. I threw away all of my practicing tools (cloak, dagger, books, candles, incense, statues, altar, celtic jewelry, scrying mirror, etc... I threw it all away. Oh and it's not like this stuff was thrift store items. I threw away thousands of dollars of stuff. I also quit smoking, quit cussing and I read everyday, went to church every chance I got, prayed constantly and even one of my dreams came true, I got to sing solo's for the church; I had always wanted to sing ever since I was a little girl. But I will tell you, doing all of these things diligently and living a life pleasing to the Lord does not go un-noticed. I remember once that I was hungry and I did not have any money, things were going really tough (a trial) and I just remember thinking "I can handle this, if it is God's will then I will eat". About 30 minutes later a woman from Chick-fil-a walked in with a party tray of food, enough to feed the whole office but just so happened I and one other person were the only ones in the building". I immediatley fell down on my face and thanked GOD, I knew it was him. He also has sent me donughts too, loved that! Another time we going to have our lights shut off and we didn't know how we were going to keep them on. I didn't panic, I just truly trusted God and guess what, the lights stayed on and they even knocked off the $150.00 fee that we were going to be charged, for no reason. I have more experiences like this but I don't want to just rattle on and on, I know God is with me. When I used to do things wrong when I first got saved (the first time I had not truely accepted Christ) I wouldn't feel bad, I didn't feel like I needed to repent, it was just ohh well something else to add to my list. Now, the second time I got saved (really the first but using 2nd to illustrate to you that there were two seperate times, 1st thought i was but not, 2nd really was.) and the final, I feel horrible when I do something bad, that is the way that I know that the Holy Ghost is with me (and the Holy ghost resides only in the hearts of the believers). When I feel that tug or that smack on the hand I know I am His child, only an unloving father would not discipline his children. I thank God for what he has done for me, God only knows where i would be now if he hadn't Intervened.

Ohh let me tell you one more example of God's work. My SON! I didn't think I could have children so when I began feeling this knot in my side I thought it was a tumor. I had called the health department and scheduled a physical. About a week later my boss kept saying "Just face it, you're pregnant". So the day before I was to get my physical I called the health dept. back and said I wanted to take a pregnancy test, well guess what....it was positive. My husband and I had been together for 7 years. Well after I found out I made an appointment with the doctor but they couldn't get me in until the next month!! I was already 5 months pregnant by this time. One of my friends came up to me and said "NO!! you are not going to wait that long, you need a check up now!!". So she then called in a favor and got me an earlier appointment. The day I went in for my first checkup I just thought everything would be fine, I would be in and out. Well, come to find out I was dialated 4cm and was fixing to loose my baby!! I had to be rushed into emergency surgery. When I came out of surgery my gynocologist told me that it is a miracle that that baby is still with us. I said "what do you mean?" She said "Well usually when I insert the probe to do the examination I insert sideways and then turn because it is more comfortable for the woman this way, but on you for some reason I did not do it". I said "So". She said "If I would have done that then I would have bursted the water sac with the amnio fluid in it (the sac was buldging since I was dialated 4cm) and you would have miscarried". Oh my God!! Now if that is not a miracle then I don't know what is. Three things tried to take my son out and God saved Him both times. 1) If I hadn't called off that physical then I would have been given a PAP Smear and that would have ruptured the water sac and killed my son. 2) If my friend hadn't gotten me an earlier appointment then I would have kept dialating (due to a weak cervix, if I didn't tell you)and would have miscarried. and 3) If my doctor had inserted the probe as she does hundreds of times a day to everyone, accept me, then my on would not be here. How can you not believe or be unsure about God, such divine intervention.....

Now one last bit, you asked about phrophecy. Well In the last days there are to be wars and pestilences, are we not seeing those now. There are to be teachers of false doctrines to come and destroy the truth, do we not see that now. We have new diseases breaking out everyday, war is all we see. Also in the last days it talks about all of the focus being on the middle east, well........we are focusing alot over there lately. Just alot of things are coming to pass. Our preacher brought out something to ponder on. Remember when we were going into Iraq and there were supposed mass armies, alot more than we faced. Well where did those armies go? It speaks of it in the bible about there being "a great army against you but I will make them dissapear and you will not know to where they have gone, for they are no more" (not an exact quote, I will get the exact scripture for you if you don't already know what I am talking about.)So where did all of those armies go?? Just something to think about.

Well this is my story, there is more nut I believe I have taken up enough of your time. I know that most of it you could discredit but one thing still remains, the love and sence of belonging that is in my heart, I know he is with me and no one can take that away.

God Bless you all,

Velisha

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i feel horrible that you could believe that these words are somehow helpful to your cause. they show the mind of a sick and afraid human being, at the mercy of a god of punishment. using an analogy that depicts acts of violence as gentle reminders of 'god's' love is proof ONLY of your weak state of mind and shallow sense of being.and you're absolutely right, nobody can take away your mental hallucinations. they are yours to keep.

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Do you have any children?

If not then I guess you would not know the love and patience that is given by a spank on the hand or a firm smack on the rear. To let your children run wild is to not care for them. To let your children do whatever they want when they want shows lack of guidance and basically says "I don't care what you do, I'm not going to waste my time".

 For example: I am potty training my son right now. Am I to let him pee and poop himself because he wants to or am I to spank him when he uses the bathroom on himself? If I did not discipline him to use the bathroom other than his pants, well let's just say he wouldn't be getting very many dates when he grows up. I teach him and love him so he will grow up to be a respectfull and honorable human being.

Also I so not see as how you can judge my charachter and my intelligence based on one comment or post. I am not weak minded, infact I see myself as strong minded and stead fast because no matter what is thrown at me or what tempts me, I never give in and I stay rooted and grounded in my beliefs. Ohh, and I am not afraid, I know I am saved by the blood of Christ and soon one day I will see him face to face.

Let me give you something to think about. This forum poses the question "What if I am wrong" but let me ask you. Maybe just maybe "What if you are wrong?"If I am wrong then I will simply die but have led a gracefull and pleasing life. If you are wrong then you risk to spend eternity (something the human mind can not fathom) in a torturous hell if you are not saved. To me, that risk is too great. Just something to think about......

God bless you all,

Velisha

Reply to : _FoXx_ fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

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Let me give you something to think about. This forum poses the question "What if I am wrong" but let me ask you. Maybe just maybe "What if you are wrong?"  If I am wrong then I will simply die but have led a gracefull and pleasing life. If you are wrong then you risk to spend eternity (something the human mind can not fathom) in a torturous hell if you are not saved. To me, that risk is too great. Just something to think about......

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I suspect that Foxx is someone trying to pull a joke, albeit in the wrong forum.  However, Foxx, on the off chance that you really believe what you are saying, you should at least consider that your logic might be faulty.  When you say, "what if you are wrong", it is a reference to the famous "Pascal's Wager."  (Blaise Pascal  was a seventeenth century the French  theologian and mathematician.)  In his work Pensees, he stated:

 "If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is."

In other words, if I believe and then it turns out to be true, I  get to go to heaven, etc.  However, if, when I die,  it turns out that there is no God, then I've lost nothing.  Sounds good, right?  Maybe not.  There are several serious problems with Pascal's logic.  One of the foremost is that there are thousands of different religions, most of them claiming they have the one true way (and believing it as much as you do -- some of them probably think god brought them donuts too). Obviously, you can't choose all of these religions, so which one would you choose?   What do you think the odds are that you happened to choose the right one out of all those choices?  They are pretty slim, I would think. 

Moreover, there is an underlying assumption in Pascal's wager that you have lost nothing if you choose to believe.  That is simply not the case.  If I spend my life worshipping a god that does not exist, I have lost a tremendous amount.  I've lost precious years of my life in worship, prayer, trying to convert others (thus taking years off their lives), etc.  If I choose to believe in an anti-modern, anti-rational theology, I've lost even more.  I lost the opportunity to understand the wonders of the universe and maybe the opportunity to make a difference in this world.  So, instead of enjoying life as it is and trying to make this world a better place now, I've expended my energy preparing for a nonexistent afterlife.  In essence, I have wasted everything in service to a myth.  I can't think of a worse loss.

As an aside, please don't hit your child for having an accident.  If you can't control your anger, you should seek professional help.  There are better and more effective ways to discipline a child.  More importantly, please think about the overall way you are raising your child.  If you push your post-modern beliefs on him, you will deprive him of the most precious gift of all -- the ability to think critically.  

Dan

 

Reply to : sayso

Hi Sayso.

Welcome.  You will find many people here who know what you are going through.  I walked away quite a long time ago.  However, I have only recently started to seek support from others who have done the same.  It certainly helps .

Regards,

Dan

Reply to : _FoXx_

Well let's start with why I know that there is God and Jesus and the Holy ghost. Did I mention before that I was(used to be) a practicing witch? Well, if I didn't then I guess you know now. I worshiped other "Gods" (Satan really, and yes he is real) and felt power, strength, control, freedom and it was exhilerating but there was no peace. I would conjur spells (and yes it is real, not some poppycock that you see on tv.) and preform rituals and I even considered joining a coven. I thought I was happy, I was so cool and unique but it only lasted for a while and then I would have to go do another spell or another sacrifice just to make me happy.

This only convinces me that you are prone to magical bullshit type of thinking.  Interpreting common everyday occurences and circumstance as some proof of your own particular supernatural flavor of the week. 

I always had to do something more to be happy, it was like a drug, the high would only last for a while.

That's life baby!  Lets see you conjure up, err, pray up a real miracle, have god make life not be so bittersweet.  These highs and lows are draggin us all down.

Then one day I just couldn't take it anymore, I felt so alone and that all I amounted to was this pitiful person whom had alienated everyone she once loved and I just knew something had to change. I immedialey thought of a friend that I had once had and I told my husband that I needed to talk to him. (My husband had always believed and has been my saving grace many times.) It was 12 o'clock at night and I just knew he would be in bed so I said that I would wait. My husband, knowing that if I didn't act now I wouldn't act at all said, "If you are meant to talk to Weldon, if this is what you feel you need to do then he will be awake". So we make the long drive and sure enough he was awake and he said that he had tried to sleep but something just kept him up.

God's well known miracle called common insomnia.

So at first we just catch up and I try to hide the real reason that I was there, I fought it, I felt embarassed that I was even there. Then all of the sudden I was just overcome with grief that I blurted out " I am scared of dying and going to hell !!" I cryed like a child,

You speld liek one tu.

I will never forget it. I told him what I had done and also of the fears that I had about my sister saying she was bi-sexual,

What's her number?

I told him all.

Where do I get the transcript?

So then we prayed together and on that very night I was saved. This time I had really accepted Jesus into my heart to change my life. (Mind you, I thought I was already saved but I suddenly knew that it was only in my head, not in my heart. I heard a saying once that rang so true for me: "Did you know that most people go to hell because of only 18 inches".

John Holmes is dead honey, it aint nowheres near that long.

I said "What!" He said "Yes, the space that it is between your head and your heart". I thought that was so profound

Yes 18 inches is really deep.

Well back to the story,

Great spot for a new paragraph don't you think?

Instantly my life changed.

No fuckin way!!

I threw away all of my practicing tools (cloak, dagger, books, candles, incense, statues, altar, celtic jewelry, scrying mirror, etc... I threw it all away. Oh and it's not like this stuff was thrift store items. I threw away thousands of dollars of stuff.

Wow I am truly impressed by your astounding devotion!  Jesus must be real, you have totally convinced me!  No one in their right mind would throw away thousands of dollars of cloaks daggers and other assorted witchy shit if Jesus wasn't really real!!

I also quit smoking, quit cussing

Impressive, Obi Christ has taught you well...

and I read everyday,

Sure didn't help your writing and spelling...

went to church every chance I got, prayed constantly and even one of my dreams came true, I got to sing solo's for the church; 

I'm sure it was a dream come true for the whole congregation as well.

I had always wanted to sing ever since I was a little girl.

Not to belittle whatever vocal talent you may possess, but most churches I have seen will let just about anyone get up and screech a blessing.

But I will tell you, doing all of these things diligently and living a life pleasing to the Lord does not go un-noticed.

Jesus loves them docile sheepies!

I remember once that I was hungry and I did not have any money, things were going really tough (a trial) and I just remember thinking "I can handle this, if it is God's will then I will eat". About 30 minutes later a woman from Chick-fil-a walked in with a party tray of food, enough to feed the whole office but just so happened I and one other person were the only ones in the building". I immediatley fell down on my face and thanked GOD, I knew it was him. He also has sent me donughts too, loved that!

This only convinces me that you are prone to magical bullshit type of thinking.  Interpreting common everyday occurences and circumstance as some proof of your own particular supernatural flavor of the week. 

Another time we going to have our lights shut off and we didn't know how we were going to keep them on. I didn't panic, I just truly trusted God and guess what, the lights stayed on and they even knocked off the $150.00 fee that we were going to be charged, for no reason.

Jesus must've miracled that accounting error away.

I have more experiences like this but I don't want to just rattle on and on, I know God is with me.

Of course he is.  Invisible friends always are in the head of the deluded, so how could he not be with you?

When I used to do things wrong when I first got saved (the first time I had not truely accepted Christ) I wouldn't feel bad, I didn't feel like I needed to repent, it was just ohh well something else to add to my list.

Ah you prolly picked up the demo version.  The oppressive guilt only comes with the deluxe version.

Now, the second time I got saved (really the first but using 2nd to illustrate to you that there were two seperate times, 1st thought i was but not, 2nd really was.) and the final, I feel horrible when I do something bad, that is the way that I know that the Holy Ghost is with me (and the Holy ghost resides only in the hearts of the believers)

Holy Ghost, or the Perfect Spook, also known as over active imagination, a priestly and internally enforced guilt based delusion, the Unadulterated Mindfuck.

 When I feel that tug or that smack on the hand I know I am His child, only an unloving father would not discipline his children. I thank God for what he has done for me, God only knows where i would be now if he hadn't Intervened.

Maybe a tad more lucid?

Ohh let me tell you one more example of God's work. My SON!

Christ on a stick!  Not another savior!

I didn't think I could have children so when I began feeling this knot in my side I thought it was a tumor. I had called the health department and scheduled a physical.

Next time schedule a psych appointment.

About a week later my boss kept saying "Just face it, you're pregnant". So the day before I was to get my physical I called the health dept. back and said I wanted to take a pregnancy test, well guess what....it was positive. My husband and I had been together for 7 years.

A fucking miracle.

Well after I found out I made an appointment with the doctor but they couldn't get me in until the next month!! I was already 5 months pregnant by this time.

Wait a second, you were 5 months pregnant and had no clue?  You are A) dumb as a fucking post   B) a whale   C) another board member who decided to take this joke out of the humor therapy room.

One of my friends came up to me and said "NO!! you are not going to wait that long, you need a check up now!!". So she then called in a favor and got me an earlier appointment. The day I went in for my first checkup I just thought everything would be fine, I would be in and out. Well, come to find out I was dialated 4cm and was fixing to loose my baby!! I had to be rushed into emergency surgery. When I came out of surgery my gynocologist told me that it is a miracle that that baby is still with us.

Pity, dipshits like you have no business reproducing and fucking up the gene pool!

I said "what do you mean?" She said "Well usually when I insert the probe to do the examination I insert sideways and then turn because it is more comfortable for the woman this way, but on you for some reason I did not do it". I said "So". She said "If I would have done that then I would have bursted the water sac with the amnio fluid in it (the sac was buldging since I was dialated 4cm) and you would have miscarried". Oh my God!! Now if that is not a miracle then I don't know what is.

This only convinces me that you are prone to magical bullshit type of thinking.  Interpreting common everyday occurences and circumstance as some proof of your own particular supernatural flavor of the week. 

Three things tried to take my son out and God saved Him both times.

Your linguistic skills amaze me.

1) If I hadn't called off that physical then I would have been given a PAP Smear and that would have ruptured the water sac and killed my son.

ha ha hah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa, my god you are the epiphany of ignorance (look the words up)

2) If my friend hadn't gotten me an earlier appointment then I would have kept dialating (due to a weak cervix, if I didn't tell you)and would have miscarried. and 3) If my doctor had inserted the probe as she does hundreds of times a day to everyone, accept me, then my on would not be here. How can you not believe or be unsure about God, such divine intervention.....

With such a ridiculous, assinine testimony as yours, how can you believe and be so sure?

Now one last bit, you asked about phrophecy. Well In the last days there are to be wars and pestilences, are we not seeing those now.

Haven't we seen them throughout human history?  You know, history, that class you slept through in school.

There are to be teachers of false doctrines to come and destroy the truth, do we not see that now. We have new diseases breaking out everyday, war is all we see. Also in the last days it talks about all of the focus being on the middle east, well........we are focusing alot over there lately. Just alot of things are coming to pass.

Same shit different day.  Focus has been on the middle east for millenia stupid, ever hear of the crusades?  Pilgrimages?  A desert shithole full of political and religious unrest, in between two great empires.  A myth was born from there that a Roman Emporer later found useful to consolidate his authority, (otherwise you would have never heard the fucking name Jesus) and that same desert shithole has been copiously paid attention to in the west ever since

Our preacher brought out something to ponder on. Remember when we were going into Iraq and there were supposed mass armies, alot more than we faced. Well where did those armies go?

The ones that didn't run are now bacon bits in the desert.

It speaks of it in the bible about there being "a great army against you but I will make them dissapear and you will not know to where they have gone, for they are no more" (not an exact quote,

No shit...

I will get the exact scripture for you if you don't already know what I am talking about.

Dont bother.

So where did all of those armies go??

Bacon bits.

Just something to think about.

Nah, I watched em get blown to fucking bits on FOX.  That was some awesome TV.  Wonder what they are going to do next season?  See no thought needed !!!

Well this is my story, there is more nut I believe I have taken up enough of your time.

Oh no, you are only trampling on an introduction from someone who is walking away from your fork-tongued religion to spew your useless testimony, why stop now?

I know that most of it you could discredit but one thing still remains, the love and sence of belonging that is in my heart, I know he is with me and no one can take that away.

Sure, Like I said, magical thinking.  You probably used to decipher good or bad omens by what color you crapped on any given day.  Now because you feel very near to something that is in your head I am supposed to take serious note? 

God Bless you all,

Supposedly he already did.  Since his blessing was bullshit...  and so was he...

Velisha

Reply to : _FoXx_

 For example: I am potty training my son right now. Am I to let him pee and poop himself because he wants to or am I to spank him when he uses the bathroom on himself?

I grew up in an abusive home.   This reasoning of yours really pisses me off.  If I walked in on my wife spanking my son for just doing his natural, habitual, well established custom of crapping his drawers, it would be her fucking ass.  Punishing a young child for his lack of total compliance with your demands that he change his entire excretorial practice, the only method he has ever known, to something unfamiliar and possibly a bit frightening, is cowardly deranged and dispicable.  You do not deserve a child since your perspective is so tragically fucked to the point where you can only screw your son up with your reams and reams of self contradictory morality and circular, mystical, illogical reasoning.

If I did not discipline him to use the bathroom other than his pants, well let's just say he wouldn't be getting very many dates when he grows up. I teach him and love him so he will grow up to be a respectfull and honorable human being.

You are a fucking idiot.  I weep for your child.  We will probably hear about you later when you stone him to death for bringing home something you deem as evil.

Also I so not see as how you can judge my charachter and my intelligence based on one comment or post.

Your batting a thousand so far.

I am not weak minded, infact I see myself as strong minded and stead fast because no matter what is thrown at me or what tempts me, I never give in and I stay rooted and grounded in my beliefs.

That is strong willed, also known as hard headed.  Don't confuse that with strong minded.

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God Bless you all, I will be praying for you all,

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awwww...shucks...that's *so* sweet.  thanks so much for caring and may Lucifer rain dark blessings down upon *you*!!   

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I would have to go do another spell or another sacrifice just to make me happy.

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"sacrifice", huh?  that's interesting...most pagans i know don't practice ritual sacrifice.  and what tradition of paganism was that you followed again...?

darlin', believe me.  if you had to rely on spells or "sacrifices"...and now, apparently, jesus and xtianity...just to make yourself feel happy and fulfilled, then i suspect you have issues that go far deeper than any form of religion or deity could resolve.  perhaps a therapist would be more beneficial.

Exactly Nologo, I have cooled down and deleted my more vociferous personal insults to dear blessed Velisha.

Her potty training method is reminiscent of my dad picking me up by my ears in an uncontrollable rage when I was really, really little because I tied my shoes too slow one day.  I wonder how people who do such things can look themselves in the mirror.  The parental tag team of physical threat and fear and it's partner endless confusing headgames and manipulation through guilt have made me a well adjusted member of society, let me tell you!  When I hear someone going down that same road with their kid it enrages me beyond words.

Now Velisha, pay close attention.  Unconditional love that will torture the fucking shit out of you eternally if you do not meet it's demands is not love, it is insanity.  Hateful petty jealousy that is at total odds with the commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself, love thy enemy.  Your entire dogma crumbles on that crux.  Read what is said about the charitable attitude that is supposed to drip from the pores of the "saved".   What kind of loving charitable quality is there in a person who could turn away from those they love deeply to joyfully wallow in the perks of heavenly bliss while those they love are writhing in unbelievable, unremitting eternal agony, at the hands of the so called loving god that has bestowed such a cushy eternity on the "saved"?  That very concept destroys all notion of real charitable love, does it not?  Am I getting through your sloped forehead? 

I only hope you snap out of this bullshit before you scar your kid for life with the endless reinforcements of the fractured moraltiy you exemplify.  The kind of morality that says, "I love you, I love you, I love you, with all my heart I love you.  I love you so much I have license to beat and humiliate you at every turn!  I love you so much I'll kill you if I have to!"

And now for something completely different. (Monty Python)

First let me say if that is you in the picture then you certainly are a fox.  If you are the other one then you are a horse.

To say that you know there is a God and then go directly to formerly practicing witchcraft really doesn't argue for a God of any kind.  Nor does it convince me there is a devil.  Think about it for a minute.  If you really have evidence for the existence of a devil you would be a regular on Coast to Coast AM and many others would be interested in your experiences.  The idea of a devil roaming the earth is similar to aliens, UFOs, Ghosts, and other paranormal experiences.  Who's to say, but then again what is the evidence and with that evidence what are the conclusions that can be made?

You said that one day you couldn't take it anymore.  What exactly was so awful?  You were alone?  You were a pitiful person who had alientated everyone you loved?  Yes, I would agree you had to change but I would say that these were choices you made and not necessarily the result of your own brand of paganism.

Having said that, I would say that it sounds like you have made some great improvements in your life by becoming more of the person you would like to be.  You used Christianity as a device to change but in all honesty you did this all by yourself I think.  Jesus really had nothing to do with it. 

I sometimes hesitate to criticize a person's decision to become a Christian because I do see them making more positive steps in their lives to some degree.  But then again I have to speak.  I can't keep myself from speaking when I see someone leaving one type of destructive behaviour and gradually moving into another destructive behaviour as a way to escape the former.  I have said it before and I will say it again, Christianity succeeds in spite of itself because it has many positive ideas of goodness, kindness, love, forgiveness etc.  But behind all the love stuff there are the insidious ideas of hell, saved and lost, evangelism, guilt and repentance and guilt, guilt guilt, sinners and saints, human sacrifice, racism and bigotry.  Oh and did I mention guilt?  Realize that Christianity paints a rosy picture on the gate to enter but once you step inside you will gradually have your mind twisted into a nonthinking pretzel.  If it really is so good and so true then thinking men and women should embrace it and be able to defend it.  The only man I have ever heard that seems to be able to argue convincingly for Christianity is Ravi Zacharias and he himself has said that there is so little evidence for the changed lives of born again believers that he is troubled.

You then said you made your decision to become a Christian because you were scared of dying and going to hell.   Well dang who isn't?  That is one scary story.  Did you ever watch Night Gallery?  How about a good Steven King novel?  Making a decision to receive Christ based on the fear of hell is stupid and wrong.   If indeed Christ is King and Saviour then the decision to follow should be based on truth and love.

Fears about your sister being bi-sexual?   Boy you sure step out of one controversial subject into another.  Once when I was a little boy I was playing a game by jumping from one rock to another rock in a cow pasture.  Since I was not a country boy I didn't realize that the next rock I was about to jump to was not a rock but a large fresh cowpie.   SPLAT!  Your story reminds me of this event for some reason.  Anyway, your concern for you sister's behaviour is understandable but completely out of your control.

Your stories of how God provided for food and other such miracles is exactly like the thousands of miracles I have heard over the years.  They really aren't miracles just old fashioned good fortune interpreted by the Christian mind.  A real miracle is when a blind man receives his sight or a dead girl comes back to life or a man with a shriveled hand has it completely restored.  Now that would be something to make you stand up and take notice.  Why is it that none of these things ever happen today?  Could it be because it never really happened and we have been sold a bill of goods about this Jesus and his miracles?  Myths.   That would be a good explanation now wouldn't it?   And don't say that miracles are happening today.  They certainly are not.  Oh sure, I have heard of them.  The visiting missionary from a foreign country has a tale.  Or the friend of a friend says. . .  But the real evidence just isn't there.  Scientists and investigators throughout the years have tried to pin down one authentic miracle from the likes of "healers" Katharine Kulman to Benny Hinn.  Not one, NOT ONE, of their many healings has ever been shown to be authentic.  And these were people who supposedly healed thousands.  Something is seriously amiss.

The reason for the appearance of more war and earthquakes and pestilence is merely because we live in a time of global communication and travel.  Wars, earthquakes and pestilence have always been with us and always will be.  Just because we hear of them more doesn't mean they are increasing.  The current events are no different from the past nor unfortunately of the future.  Unless more and more people work to stop as much of the insanity as possible.  One way to stop some of these wars is to stop hoping for prophecied armageddons and start realizing that these stories are no good for the future well being of humanity.

Your swallowing that story of your pastor's about the armies disappearing really tells me you will fall for just about anything.  Critical thinking is needed hear Velisha.  I plead with you to at least think for yourself a little.  Saddam Hussein obviously did not have much of an army.  And what he did have was blown to shreds.  Interestingly I have heard this story before from one of my  relatives. The gullibility of Christians is truly miraculous.

" the love and sence of belonging that is in my heart, I know he is with me and no one can take that away."  This is about the only statement you make that starts to get somewhere.

Is this all too tough to take?  Well maybe these replies are something you needed to hear.  I am not trying to turn you away from goodness and virtuous ways.  Instead, I would suggest that there is a better way to think and live in this world.

-Exit

Exit Only,

As for you I thank you for responding in a respectfull and intelligent maner. I do like speaking with you because you can remain civil and not personally attack me for what I believe in. I know some things that I stated to you may not be huge miracles but they are mine and there is nothing that can take away that feeling of love and compassion that I feel when God touches my life. I just wish there was something that I could say or do that could bring you back to God but I will just have to respect the fact that I have tried. Wether or not you come to remember my words one day is left in the hands of God. I will respect you for who you are and not push the issue any further. Afterall, I am the intruder, seeing as this is a non-Christian board.

God Bless you,

Velisha

Others,

How dare you say that I am abusing my son!! There is a difference in smacking someone around and spanking. Even animals discipline their young, aren't we to be above animals?? I have been abused also (Wow, you aren't the only one, hummmm) and I would NEVER EVER inflict the physical and emotional pain that was inflicted upon me onto my son!! I LOVE MY SON! I waited 7 years for this miracle to happen and for you to belittle that sickens me. You don't know me from Adam, how dare you judge me and my methods of parenting. With his every laugh, every smile, every frown I just stand in awe of him. I would lay my life down for my child.

Now, for the trivial issue of spelling and paragraph arrangement I would just like to say "So what". If all you get out of everything that I have written is that I misplaced and i or left out a letter or God forbid I did not punctuate properly then I guess you need to take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are as perfect as you seem to think everyone else should be.

This is all I will write for now ,

God Bless,

Velisha 

Reply to : _FoXx_

Others,

How dare you say that I am abusing my son!!

I dare.  Spanking for potty training is going too far.  Period.  I advise you to try to come up with an alternative.  If you love your kid and have half a wit, you can dump that spare not the rod crap and be able to guide him with love and respect, not brute force.  I hit you with words, look how indignant you are, how unjust you think my attack was.  Apply that concept. 

There is a difference in smacking someone around and spanking. Even animals discipline their young, aren't we to be above animals??

Think that comment over, repeat it until you get it.  And FYI, we are animals sweety.

I have been abused also (Wow, you aren't the only one, hummmm) and I would NEVER EVER inflict the physical and emotional pain that was inflicted upon me onto my son!! I LOVE MY SON!

Then use that strong mind of yours to come up with some method that wont having him shitting his pants just for fear of a spanking.

I waited 7 years for this miracle to happen and for you to belittle that sickens me.

Your method of potty training pisses me off quite a bit.  I was just having fun at your expense because of your jeebus ramble, until I read that post of yours about spanking your son for the horrendous misbehavior of having accidents, or not learning fast enough or whatever your reason.  Spankings should be reserved for something that is a real big deal and be absolute last resort.

You don't know me from Adam, how dare you judge me and my methods of parenting. With his every laugh, every smile, every frown I just stand in awe of him. I would lay my life down for my child.

Sure, but you wont lay down the fucking paddle. 

Now, for the trivial issue of spelling and paragraph arrangement I would just like to say "So what".

No shit, but it is fun to take cheap pot shots at you, I admit it I am a childish dick.  You were too easy a target though.  The grammatical skills you possess are just dressing for your ridiculous testimonial.  You havent a realistically logical bone in your body from what I have read, you seem to reason by emotion and by imaginary prompts from your imaginary unadulterated spook. I wanted to point it out to you.  Who gives a shit about grammar, but on a computer monitor, it is really hard to read huge blocks of type.  Remember, the enter key is everyone's friend.

If all you get out of everything that I have written is that I misplaced and i or left out a letter or God forbid I did not punctuate properly then I guess you need to take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are as perfect as you seem to think everyone else should be.

I aint perfect, you are just an easy target for ridicule.  Obviously I got more out of what you read than your crappy spelling and grammar.  I laughed my ass off.  Very seldom does such a walking lobotomy show up on this board.  Thanks.

This is all I will write for now ,

Promise?

God Bless,

Your god sucks.  Keep it to yourself.  Specially here, this is a place where people are often feeling pretty raw about the vomit you have been spewing.  Show some of the fucking respect you are so thankful that Exit Only has given you.

Velisha 

Hey if that avatar is you, you got a pic that shows more skin?

I hate coming into the personal intro room.  I never did one myself so I feel like a twit yukkin it up with anyone in here, and inevitably I have a comment or two I would like to lob at someone else on the thread and that is trampling on someones intro.

So since I broke with my routine and trampled on your intro, I will break further and say howdy Sayso, welcome to the bored.

I never thought I would see things so differently as well.  But since I was so hung up on not being able to trust a deity who is capable of inflicting unspeakable torture on those he says he loves, it is only natural that I didn't last.  My heart was trying to tell me something I guess.  Even so, I was kicked out, cast away, I didn't walk either.   I crawled away bleeding pretty badly.  At the time I believed god to be my last hope.  But since a myth can't keep them lofty promises, god fell through on his end, even though I was faithful all the way to total ruin.  No I didn't walk away at all...

Sorry for trampling on your thread.