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Chirpy
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91#
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Registered:03/06/2003
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/03/2008 03:31:05)
There are some women who seem confused about their sexuality. Some are natually gay and know it but marry into a heterosexual marriage because convention demands it or used to. However there are other women who deliberately try the Lesbian lifestyle because of previous bad experiences with men rather than trying to sort themselves out and learn to be more assertive and make better choices. Maybe they're bisexual anyway but the Lesbian community is fed up with these pretend Lesbians.
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snakechic
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92#
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Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/03/2008 14:29:16)
Okay... . thanks for clarifying your point Chirpy.
I know exactly what you mean now.
Yep...I worked with a Lesbian Community (women's health) at one point & I have a mate who did just that and I doubt she would be tolerated.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Guest
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/04/2008 15:35:08)
I haven't visited here in awhile. It's good to drop in again. I really enjoyed reading the replies in this thread.
It's hard to choose what the worst lie that I was told was. Like many have already said, I'm tempted to just say "the whole thing". Still, for me, a few of the ideas I was fed impacted me more than others.
1. The idea that God will solve all my problems, and the that I can avoid most confusion, tragedy, or grief if my faith is strong enough. The churches I was involved in were Word of Faith, so in addition to the usual stuff about eternal reward they spent alot of time preaching about how we'd be protected, even pampered in the here and now. The catch was that we had to maintain a strong faith, speak the "word" (repeat or chant scripture), cast out the devil and "crucify our flesh". That last one meant stamping out our human nature. The fact that countless scores of people (even those who followed the rules to the best of their ability) never got their blessing was swept under tha rug.I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
2. The lie that enjoying your mind is a bad thing. I"ve always loved reading and learning about a variety of topics. In the churches I attended, I frequently heard how "intellectualism" was a bad thing, and a stumblingblock to a relationship with Jesus. It was okay to read approved materials, such as Christian spirituality books (and if you were woman, cook books), but overall it was seen as pretty much a waste of time to learn anything other than the "Word". I never did entirely stop reading about things that interested me, but I self-censored alot and felt guilty that whatever I was reading didn't reflect fundamentalist morals or doctrine. In addition, imagination and creativity were not celebrated or encouraged in Christian circles unless they were used to advance the gospel message. Imagination was seen as dangerous and a gateway for satan. I'm still trying to recover from the creative block which was caused by so many years of being afraid of my own mind.
3. That authority was put in place by God and was not to be questioned. I think most of us are all too familiar with this particular load of crap, so I don't even have to elaborate.
Did Jesus fill the void? Yes and No. There were times when I felt comforted by the idea that God/Jesus was there for me, that he heard me, that I was special in his eyes. I felt that he knew how hard i struggled to believe the fundamentalist message, and what a tough time I had at home. I hoped he'd show me favor for pushing my doubts away 10,000 times a day,when others seemed to just coast by more easily.
On the flip side, I never felt I was good enough. I had a nagging feeling that God saw my every flaw, and that not even a Niagara Falls-like shower of the blood of jesus could make me anything more than the sorry little loser I was. After all, God was a pretty tough guy, just look at the Bible. I figured one false step, and I was out of favor. And I knew I'd make a false step. I knew I probably made one every day.
I guess the answer is that I did find comfort in the idea of Jesus sometimes, because it was what I had, and the thought of being fulfilled in any other way didn't occur to me for many years.
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Chirpy
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94#
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Registered:03/06/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/05/2008 07:35:38)
The lie that enjoying your mind is a bad thing. I"ve always loved reading and learning about a variety of topics. In the churches I attended, I frequently heard how "intellectualism" was a bad thing, and a stumblingblock to a relationship with Jesus. It was okay to read approved materials, such as Christian spirituality books (and if you were woman, cook books), but overall it was seen as pretty much a waste of time to learn anything other than the "Word". I never did entirely stop reading about things that interested me, but I self-censored alot and felt guilty that whatever I was reading didn't reflect fundamentalist morals or doctrine.
I can understand that. That was the case for me. When I left fundyism at the age of thirty I had so much to catch up with as despite being a bit of a bookworm half of the material I was reading was the Bible and christian books plus a daily newspaper. You get single minded to the point where you appear to be like somebody with Aspergers Syndrome*. I had ten years of movie history to catch up with so I hired a few videos and read books on it. I borrowed Usbourne and Dorling Kindersley books (educational books for children of all ages) from public libraries and read them with fascination as a kind of bluffers guide to everything. It was fun reading about the planet and I took an interest in countries all over the world including geographical features. I would take trips to different towns and visit the attractions there; museums, exhibitions, castles, etc. I wanted to learn a little about everything rather than get too deep in to anything by reading heavy academic tomes. Fundies think that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and on leaving fundyism I was free from that attitude. You're supposed to have specialised talents; not be a Jack of all trades. As a single woman for instant I wasn't supposed to know anything about cooking as I wasn't cooking for anybody else but how else could I feed myself.
* Aspbergers Syndrome is a label given to people who are somewhat introverted and have specialised interests. It is a much misused term and can be used to try and normalise people into being shallow and gregarious. However aspies as they like to call themselves tend not to play power games as fundies do and communicate in a direct and honest way. Also they appreciate and crave solitude and look for validation from the group as fundies do.
I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
I've also come across this attitude in Buddhist groups and recently also with new agers obsessed with astrology who spend a lot of time looking up into the sky and blaming the alignment of the stars and the planets in the solar system for what is happening to them. This kind of fatalism isn't exclusive to fundy christians as it seems part of any religion orginating in the Orient. In the area of psychotherapy and self help we're told that if only we would behave confidently at all times no harm would come to us (other than natural disaster) as people wouldn't try to take us for a ride as we wouldn't attract them to us. But that confidence is false if we don't have the knowledge to back it up. Abusers try to take advantage of all sorts of people. Also it's not what happens to us it's how we deal with it that counts. Bad things happen to good people and also so-called confident people.
(Message edited by Chirpy On 03/05/2008 07:47:47)
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snakechic
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95#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:03/05/2008 15:01:32)
1. The idea that God will solve all my problems, and the that I can avoid most confusion, tragedy, or grief if my faith is strong enough.....I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
2. The lie that enjoying your mind is a bad thing...... but I self-censored alot and felt guilty that whatever I was reading didn't reflect fundamentalist morals or doctrine. In addition, imagination and creativity were not celebrated or encouraged in Christian circles unless they were used to advance the gospel message. Imagination was seen as dangerous and a gateway for satan. I'm still trying to recover from the creative block which was caused by so many years of being afraid of my own mind.
There were times when I felt comforted by the idea that God/Jesus was there for me, that he heard me, that I was special in his eyes. I felt that he knew how hard i struggled to believe the fundamentalist message, and what a tough time I had at home. I hoped he'd show me favor for pushing my doubts away 10,000 times a day,when others seemed to just coast by more easily.
On the flip side, I never felt I was good enough. I had a nagging feeling that God saw my every flaw, and that not even a Niagara Falls-like shower of the blood of jesus could make me anything more than the sorry little loser I was. After all, God was a pretty tough guy, just look at the Bible. I figured one false step, and I was out of favor. And I knew I'd make a false step. I knew I probably made one every day.
I guess the answer is that I did find comfort in the idea of Jesus sometimes, because it was what I had, and the thought of being fulfilled in any other way didn't occur to me for many years.
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Hi guest - chock full answer - great! About point 1 ... sounds like there was a very definite conflict between the old 'faith vs works' dogma at the 'Word of Faith' church. ( a bet each way) Crazy huh! The dogma of 'rewards' - special treatment on earth in my experiences leads to followers believing they are the 'chosen' ones which becomes the external expectation but internally the individual is in conflict & is doubtful. (its like a performance for each other and the real person is kept secret and private from the group) Some individuals are more suited to this lifestyle than others (I think) and coast along. ? And when it all that goes wrong and the followers find themselves in trouble - the 'shit hits the fan' or some minor tribulation - then its their own fault. ? Well yeah - sometimes it is but the whole thing is Crazy......the others tend to look on these 'misfortunes' - 'mistakes' etc....as signs from god -( Punishment/reward). I think this also sets up a system that people compete with each other. Brag to extremes - show off and generally behave like twats. Yes...very immature. There is pure escapism. 2. Imagination. Oh yeah. I remember that one. And dreaming was forbidden! Haha Crazy.! However the SDAist church I recall...the members all enjoyed a good old bible debate and would go on and on ...and on.. Intellect was valued - I recall being encouraged to study medicine, law etc. It was all about 'work' and nothing about pleasure or fun. Enjoyment!? - not godly. Crazy people! So would you say any 'comfort' you felt was overridden by your fear? which you mention more than once... ' being afraid of my own mind' ..'.my fear of not performing ' and being on guard for the 'devil'....'one false step and I was out of favor'. Would you say that it was your own fear that 'sabotaged' your development or stuckiness inside christianity? (not sure how to put it...fear of failure) You say failures were swept 'under the rug'...what kept you silent about those things? You say you 'self censored' reading material etc. was that also from fear? Perhaps not knowing who you were? Anyway.. enjoyed your post. I think this doctrine kept me immature, expecting big daddy god to take care of ever little detail. But then again there was my fear of not performing to his standards and losing his protection. Whenever trouble befell another Christian, I'd find myself wondering what they did wrong, and hoping that I'd avoid doing whatever the terrible thing was.
Chirpy said...
I've also come across this attitude in Buddhist groups and recently also with new agers obsessed with astrology who spend a lot of time looking up into the sky and blaming the alignment of the stars and the planets in the solar system for what is happening to them. This kind of fatalism isn't exclusive to fundy christians Yep - its in every kind of religion......including all kinds of christianity (whatever label you want to give it - liberal, moderate, fundy, charismatic, and so on - in all kinds of denominations) Its part of the 'hook'....everyone can have at some point wants/needs for an easy answer and/or a crutch or a solution..some kind of interest that explains the universe - those heavy and often asked questions - 'why am I here' and 'I want to be safe here' and 'how can live' etc..etc. That part of humanness...is not extraordinary at all. Answers? All those things are generated by people - information, academic to the anecdotal , advice, self help advice, including mental health tips, testimonies, moral or ethical - everything! It up to the individual to work out what is suitable for them and what isn't. And consider the rationale for the need to blame the 'product' when it fails to give the 'correct' answer. Its okay to make mistakes and change your mind.........and live without having all your questions answered. Yep...shit happens!
(Message edited by snakechic On 03/05/2008 16:18:33)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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logophile
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96#
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Rank:none
Score:94
Posts:94
Registered:08/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/07/2008 20:36:41)
Hi snakechic and Chirpy. I'm "Guest". I didn't bother signing in last visit and idn't even realize til after I'd posted.
To answer snakechics questions.....
Q. So would you say any 'comfort' you felt was overridden by your fear? which you mention more than once... ' being afraid of my own mind' ..'.my fear of not performing ' and being on guard for the 'devil'....'one false step and I was out of favor'.
A. Yes. I felt that god's love was conditional so I only felt a sense of peace when I felt I'd been pretty close to perfect. In church, they spoke of god's love being unconditional, but they spent far more time saying how god was righteous and couldn't stand to look at unrighteousness, would bring vengence on "evil", etc. It was a very punishment oriented mesage. Even if a Christian managed to avoid hell, there were so many things they might suffer here on earth if they didn't lisetn to and follow god's voice. Unfortunately, this made alot of sense to me simply because of my upbringing. I was raised by a parent who spoiled me with lots of material things but abused me emotionally and physically, and who was very volatile when I made any mistake. The fundy word-of-faith god seemed to fit this mold.
Q. You say failures were swept 'under the rug'...what kept you silent about those things? You say you 'self censored' reading material etc. was that also from fear? Perhaps not knowing who you were?
A. It was indeed a whole cycle of fear. I started off fearful cause I was a kid handling one often scary, weird situation (home) and being exposed to another scary, weird situation (church/religion), neither of which I had any control over or ability to escape from at the time. I adapted, as kids will do; saying and doing what I gathered was expected of me in order to survive. Along the line, I suppose a type of brainwashing did occur, because at first I was aware of my skepticism and doubt, but after a few years, I truly started to believe (or tricked myself into thinking I believed). I really did want to please god and not rock the boat. It wasn't until I was in my early 20's that I was able to start uncovering all the crap I had choked down.
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snakechic
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97#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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Reply To logophile
(Date Posted:03/09/2008 16:17:25)
Hi snakechic and Chirpy. I'm "Guest". I didn't bother signing in last visit and idn't even realize til after I'd posted.
To answer snakechics questions.....
Q. So would you say any 'comfort' you felt was overridden by your fear? which you mention more than once... ' being afraid of my own mind' ..'.my fear of not performing ' and being on guard for the 'devil'....'one false step and I was out of favor'.
A. Yes. I felt that god's love was conditional so I only felt a sense of peace when I felt I'd been pretty close to perfect. In church, they spoke of god's love being unconditional, but they spent far more time saying how god was righteous and couldn't stand to look at unrighteousness, would bring vengence on "evil", etc. It was a very punishment oriented mesage. Even if a Christian managed to avoid hell, there were so many things they might suffer here on earth if they didn't lisetn to and follow god's voice. Unfortunately, this made alot of sense to me simply because of my upbringing. I was raised by a parent who spoiled me with lots of material things but abused me emotionally and physically, and who was very volatile when I made any mistake. The fundy word-of-faith god seemed to fit this mold.
Q. You say failures were swept 'under the rug'...what kept you silent about those things? You say you 'self censored' reading material etc. was that also from fear? Perhaps not knowing who you were?
A. It was indeed a whole cycle of fear. I started off fearful cause I was a kid handling one often scary, weird situation (home) and being exposed to another scary, weird situation (church/religion), neither of which I had any control over or ability to escape from at the time. I adapted, as kids will do; saying and doing what I gathered was expected of me in order to survive. Along the line, I suppose a type of brainwashing did occur, because at first I was aware of my skepticism and doubt, but after a few years, I truly started to believe (or tricked myself into thinking I believed). I really did want to please god and not rock the boat. It wasn't until I was in my early 20's that I was able to start uncovering all the crap I had choked down.
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Hey Logo - great to see you. I had no idea it was you thou' - the AImoo people have messed up this site pretty well! Thanks so much for your answers too. It puts my own childhood experiences in some kind of perspective...meaning how come I didn't swallow the message in the same way. Basically what strikes me the most in your first answer was the fact that you were 'spoiled' materially. I guess that would set up a lot of confusion for a kid. I didn't have that same kind of experience so it was much easier for me to doubt the 'adults bearing gifts' thing. Yes ...I also saw adults become very volatile (& what I nice way to put it Logo) ...For me it was obvious even at a young age how different the folks were in public and how they acted in the privacy of their own home. Yes..my mother spoke in 'gods voice' often. ! Yep...kids don't have any control over their environment - suffer physical symptoms of major stress/abuse. I was lucky in my old SDAist church in that they didn't have many kids there at the time so I and another little girl were left unattended to goof off and play while the adults washed feet or did whatever it was they did. I learned to goof off and NOT pay attention to a lot of stuff that I thought was horrible or uninteresting - and I left home very young. I'd say the only thing I got out of christianity at the time...was a fear of satan, demons, being possessed, ...evil. I learned that there was no point in trying to please my parents - christianity - they kept changing the rules or making the "yard stick' I was expected to jump.. higher and higher. My sibling had a different personality and learnt how play the system. ? *shrug* ( I'm guessing) Anyway...I looked up Word of Faith. I've never heard of that crowd before but "Pentecosts" are Pentecosts in my book and are a class of their own. I can't begin to imagine the damage that particular dogma has on kids, teenagers and young adults. You know I only had a very brief taste of penties because of that drama with the sister awhile ago but that's enough for me - (not to mention the online chatroom I had a bad times with when I first started researching this topic) I think it certainly makes a difference which denomination the individual was exposed to - not saying they aren't all bad in their own way but only that you can't generalise and think you know everything about 'fundamentalism' or 'conservative christianity'..or whatever thing you want to call it. I think the way in which an individual looses a sense of 'who you are' is a common outcome of a 'born into' experience. I think its great to be able to label those experiences for what they are - abuse. (I think the 'born again' or adult entry (by choice) into christianity is a different kettle of fish...pardon the pun)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Chirpy
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98#
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Registered:03/06/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/10/2008 03:20:23)
Reply to Snakechic
I learned that there was no point in trying to please my parents - christianity - they kept changing the rules or making the "yard stick' I was expected to jump.. higher and higher. My sibling had a different personality and learnt how play the system. ? *shrug* ( I'm guessing)
I wish I had sussed that out when I was young. I seemed to be forever trying to chase some elusive ideal and it didn't occur to me that the search was endless until I was around the age of thirty. By then I was burnt out and had stopped bothering with striving or improving myself in anyway unless it was for my personal benefit. It's hard when I get involved in anything to set my own goals and not look around at all the others to see what they are doing and how far their are progressing but I know one thing is for certain that if I meet a hard taskmaster who is never satisfied for a tutor, employer, group organiser, friend or boyfriend I'm out because I know that I wouldn't be able to stand the pressure or find it easy to set my own goals.
When you were goofing off in church services was that actually in the hall where you were worshipping or did you have a chance to run off outside? The problem with being in a church with lots of families is that there is a special program arranged for the children so there's no chance or excuse to goof off.
(Message edited by Chirpy On 03/10/2008 03:22:35)
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snakechic
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99#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/11/2008 16:31:09)
Reply to Chirpy (03/23/2005 7:28 PM).
wish I had sussed that out when I was young.
When you were goofing off in church services was that actually in the hall where you were worshipping or did you have a chance to run off outside? The problem with being in a church with lots of families is that there is a special program arranged for the children so there's no chance or excuse to goof off.
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I'm not sure I sussed it all out either Chirpy. I simply gave up trying to obey my parents and their religious dogma - I had enough clear evidence it was all fucked up.. I still had a lot of growing up to do outside that environment and I still tend to be my own 'hard taskmaster' at times but I don't think that's too bad - I get things done and won't quit easily when it gets tough. It comes in handy when we need someone to complain by phone etc. Heheee But yeah..I think I know what you mean - I don't tend to care to change myself simply because some one doesn't like what I do. Oh..that lovely memory of mine of playing outside was a one off, short period that lasted for a couple of weeks. Children at the SDAist church I went to were expected to sit inside the church building along side their parents for the entire 3 hours or so. I think anyone - including any adult would find it difficult to concentrate for that length of time. I was nearly always tired & exhausted - at the end of the week - Saturday (church day). I doubt the church setup accounted for how much rest little kids need and what an impossible thing it is to expect them to sit still for 3/4 hrs straight. I remember falling asleep in church a lot. Including travel time to and from church it added up to over 5 hours. Then of course there was the usual after church socialising on top of that....so by the time I was 10 years old I was well and truly over it.! I hated going to church. There are lots of things to consider in my experience of 'church' - the era - the basic attitude to children under 10 was a lot different to what its like now or even the last 20 or so years ago. The old thing of 'seen and not heard' combined with a general idea that small kids aren't much above small animals waiting to be 'filled' up with crap etc etc didn't make for a very nice childhood - especially for a kid who was curious about the world (what kid isn't). My parents were very committed members and had some authority and position in the church - especially my father so that meant I was largely overlooked during that busy after 'church' time. Sabbath the day of rest...ha! it was far from it. I also had the misfortune or fortune to watch my parents go through a period of being disillusioned by Adventism - I didn't know anything much at the time except that it meant that my parents were even more occupied and had even less time to focus on a little kid. It gave me freedom to sneak away and play more on weekends. So...by the time they decided to join the local Baptists I was about 10yrs and too old for the Sunday school thing they had set up there. That was fine by me too. My peers weren't all that 'accepting' of a newbie from a strange church (the SDAist) although the adults didn't show anything but 'welcome' to my parents there was a flakiness about the whole thing. I put my foot down at about 14 - 15 yrs and refused to go to church altogether. My sister was different and being that much older did things like become a sunday school teacher for a short time, got baptised etc. but at the same time not continuing with any kind of church attendance as soon as she married and left home. That meant I was left home alone so I copped it double from then on. Important to mention that just because I failed to 'learn' the religious detail or buy into the 'faith' stuff....didn't mean I wasn't fucked up by the stupidity of it. The mind games based on fear etc. It does damage children not to mention that capital punishments (physical abuse) that most christians accept as their god given right (even today). I think its also important to recognise the attitudes that most christians seem to have in common. That the dogma/doctrine or gospel is more important than the individual. That is a bear faced lie. People count - individuals matter!
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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100#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
Posts:3587
Registered:11/02/2004
Time spent: 6158 hours
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/11/2008 17:24:41)
To go on briefly about the point of 'gospel' , dogma, or doctrine being more important than the individual has many different angles and results. (Its a big lie folks.)
One ... I'd like to outline is the way its used as a recruiting tool.
My older sibling had a pretty uneasy and confusing childhood largely exacerbated by our parents religious beliefs - they were committed Seven Dayers, then Baptist for the remaining years of their lives.
My sibling related to me that she was told that all 'our' 'bad' experiences in the past was down to the 'false' church teachings etc.Sister White a false prophet etc etc.... and that NOW she is being offered the really real TRUTH (sarcasm) by her NEW church and wonderful enlightened pastor who of course has 'gods' message down pat. Enter the Pentecostals!
The other point that is used to recruit or appeal to people who had 'bad' experiences or uneventful experiences with past religious organisations is to say...
'this is not a 'church'...'we are above all that religious falseness' ..or whatever way they word it ?
Know what I mean?
It's a cliche'..'.don't through the baby out with the bath water' -Ever wonder why someone else would want you to NOT do that? (thinking out loud)
If you really are listesing ...the result of hearing that is to basically be give the impression that whatever 'bad' experiences the individual goes through at the hands of christians /christianity was not a good enough 'bad' experience - that nothing is 'that bad' to put you off christianity for the rest of your life.
In other words ...suck it up and stick your head in the noose again and again. It goes against the survival mechanisms that should be reinforced for the individual who has suffered any kind of abuse.
The people who enjoy going about picking holes in other "churches' for the sake of debating the 'gospel' while remaining 'conservative' or whatever kind of christians are exploiting the pain and suffering those individuals who have been abused. Its a self centred & self serving pass time or hobby.
It that a lie? Its exploitation of suffering - How many various ways do the 'christians' do that? There is always going to be a 'bad' church to make the other churches feel 'good' about their own church ..on & on..& on it goes.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Guest
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/11/2008 18:01:08)
I've come across those attitudes with the fundies in my life at the moment. They think they have found the ideal church, get their fingers burnt and then say that the people there were just religious and not 'proper christians'. Yet these fundies are just as much part of the system and doing just as much abusing as the people they complain about.
The SDA church services sound very much like the JW ones where children were expected to sit still in adult services for at least two hours and get beaten if they didn't sit still and stay quiet. I know three people who are ex JW's.
Thanks for your replies, Snakechic. They are keeping me going and are a welcome distraction while I adjust to being back on-line at home what with the downloading of updated software and plug ins. I've also got a backlog of e-mails to read and delete as I didn't have time when I was using public libraries (computers were very slow and we would be logged out every half an hour not to mention the rationing of time allowed on the computer) and I'm now getting word blindness. I've also unsubscribed to quite a few e-mailing lists where I was getting huge newsletters not just weekly but every other day as well and coming across the same articles regurgitated over and again. Isn't it strange that some website owners would rather use your inbox to get their messages across rather than keeping an easily accessible and up to date website. I thought that newsletters were supposed to give updates on what's new and links to the website itself. I digress.
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Chirpy
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102#
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Registered:03/06/2003
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/11/2008 18:06:40)
Oops forgot to log in again. Further to what I was putting across in the above post was that the bad churches with the religious rather than true christian people in them are not the problem so much as conservative christianity as a whole. About time the fundies I know figured this out. But then it's like trying to convince people that the weather patterns are changing dramatically and that it is not just a natural event. We have severe gales at the moment and no can convince me that this has always been the case. There are now becoming more commonplace in Britain.
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zonmoy
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103#
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:03/20/2008 22:32:00)
the idea that if you didnt believe in all their bullshit then you were a child of the devil and destined for hell.
creationism
that I am evil for being gay.
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Question everything
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snakechic
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104#
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:11/10/2008 00:26:50)
'trust me, I'm a christian'?
That's an oldie but a goodie!
good thread
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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105#
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Re:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:01/06/2009 17:11:37)
I wonder who invented the idea of that a birth date was/is the 25th December for a alleged jesus/sonofgod?
Who could know considering the bible is so inadequate.
Probably derived from Roman holiday?
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Aimoo Team
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I can't even make this shit up.
(Date Posted:01/14/2009 11:46:12)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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lsl_mss
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107#
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:02/10/2009 10:46:20)
1. I am worthless and have no inherent good qualities that do not come from God. therefore, without him, I am nothing.
2. that god's love is unconditional.
There are just these conditions of:
Believing Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins.
Repenting and asking forgiveness everytime you make a mistake.
Living your entire existence to glorify God.
Becoming completely dependent on God to guide your every decision.
The list goes on and on.
If God's love is truly unconditional, then how would it *ever* be possible to fall out of God's favor and therefore have to spend eternity in Hell?
If it is truly unconditional, and he truly feels all this deep love for us, how could he even conceive of/create a place such as hell where we would be tortured and punished endlessly?
I don't know - it is such a twisted and sick version of love. It blows me away that intelligent, educated people don't see what a dysfunctional relationship it is. And with a being you can't even talk to and get an answer from in real life conversation! It's all assumptions about what god's answers are to your questions or actions or feelings....guessing all the time....
Ugh...it gets me all riled up inside. It makes me mad. It makes me sad. It makes me frustrated. It makes me angry that I spent my teen years hating myself and being suicidal over god's "unconditional" love that I was not worthy of but he was gracious enough to bestow upon me anyway - if I follow the conditions.....
It's just a big fucking circle.....
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Courage is the price life exacts for granting peace.
~Amelia Earhart
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Guest
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Re:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:02/22/2009 05:32:51)
Just one example from a family member:My mother-in-law (Church of Christ) was speaking of a lady she knew (Methodist). Her exact words to me were: "She's such nice lady, it's a shame she's going to Hell."Obviously because this unfortunate but nice lady was a Methodist instead of a member of the Church of Christ.I can recall as early as age 5 or 6 not believing the fairytales of Noah's Ark, Jonah in the whale's belly, etc.So many more...
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Chirpy
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109#
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:08/02/2009 15:40:01)
I walked into a christian coffee shop by accident a year ago and while the proprietor was friendly and welcoming and the place well decorated with no sign of it being ran by christians he was a tad patronising and there wasn't much going on there. He was talking about the other cafes in the area and told me that the 'Milgi' wasn't the right place for me. Well that cafe has now gone out of business and I frequent the 'Milgi' occasionally and I'm welcome as long as I'm prepared to pay their prices. There's a lot more going on there with as well with an extensive drinks and food menu along with magazines, videos and special events.
It seems many christians try to be 'protective' when in reality they are being controlling. I had a christian fiance who didn't like me going to my ski-ing lessons as it meant crossing the Thames by boat and returning through the Woolwich tunnel because it was unsafe but he was prepared to make a nuisance of himself preaching hell fire to the people locally which in effect would have put me in danger when I married him. I guess if I had gone to Woolwich the long way round by taking the train into central London and out again he still would have 'been concerned'.
Another who has recently become a christian questionned me going down to the allotment by bicycle just before dusk to water the plants when it's been hot. I feel like saying to her 'well if you're that concerned why don't you phone me and come with me'. I know it's about control; keeping me from going outside in the evenings.
Did Jesus fill the emptiness? Yes at first. The christians I knew were kind and friendly and loved life but I soon fell into the hands of fundies. When my life began to close up as I became more religious it did become lonely. It wasn't until I forgot to go to church one Sunday and it became a habit I started to feel a bit more optimistic and less fearful which is what caused the emptiness. Where I live now the churches are very strict Calvinist and I would feel very lost and depressed if I returned.
(Message edited by Chirpy On 08/02/2009 15:43:56)
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snakechic
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110#
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:08/13/2009 21:46:10)
Reading the last entry (Hi Chirpy) who wrote...The christians I knew were kind and friendly and loved life but I soon fell into the hands of fundies.
That reminded me of ...ONE of the BIGGEST bits of bullshit or lie I've had to come to terms with. That just because a person calls themselves a 'christian' doesn't make them a 'good' human being, or someone I can 'trust'. For me...to believe in the above generalisation is nothing but the work or amount of PR or propaganda/advertising that christianity likes to spend some of its HUGE wealth on.
The other bit...its that I think its a lie...that there is a difference between fundies and others. That fundies are the only bits of the christian movement that is faulty or bad for people and that the rest is 'ok' or even to be left alone without scrutiny.
I don't think the whole story is so black and white.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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Chirpy
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111#
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Registered:03/06/2003
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:08/23/2009 10:42:34)
I don't think many christians are kind and friendly these days but we're going back to the days when more people went to church and that included the nice people as well. I find the liberal christians a bit boring. They have this do-gooding attitude rather than judgemental attitude and are forever trying to make you feel guilty for not doing enough for the poor. The fundies take this to the extreme and are the right wing version and are extremely boring.
One lie I was told was that if I trusted Jesus fully I'll have adventures and do crazy things. In fact I became boring. Life is what you make it and you have to go out there rather than wait for Jesus to make things happen by bringing people to your door. That brings me to another lie. I was always told to wait on the Lord rather than make things happen for myself.
Another lie; a little bit of knowledge about anything is a bad thing. They don't see that to gain knowledge of anything you have to start with a little bit. It's their way of keeping you in ignorance.
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Guest
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RE:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:09/01/2009 04:33:48)
That's a good point about the adventure - ALL good points on this thread by the way! - I remember a song called "The Great Adventure" about Christianity when in reality it actually made MY life more well not boring, it was sometimes too miserable to be called boring! but more restricted & yes much less exciting than it is now. Having more adventures as an EX Christian!
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snakechic
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113#
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Rank:none
Score:3587
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Re:What were the worst lies they told YOU? And, DID Jesus fill the emptiness?
(Date Posted:09/16/2009 21:47:48)
BORING! Not wrong!
It was a totally suffocating waste of time...especially for a kid who wanted to be outside playing. Yeah ...I think misery is implanted as a way to relieve the boredom and give people distrations from the sheer monontony of it all. Pain is exciting for the spectators - and there are plenty of them in church ...(not to mention gossip)
Penticostals seem to be tops at inventing a dramatic version of christianity...the speaking in tongues and other tricks on their books, drama of the demons - so called spiritual warfare etc... watching out for sins
The "rules' (or sins)...I think are part of the scam that gives people something to accomplish everyday or on their church day.....rules keep people busy and entertained. (Perfection is impossible).
I think one of the biggest scams...to make chrisitanity less boring for some...is the challenge of 'fishing' for new recruits. The buzz of achieving a "YES" result from another humanbeing and being rewarded by agreement and justification for the long long hours of praising the sky.
Evangelicals shit me right off.....
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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